When looking at original examples it's worth mentioning that there is a consistency they have even if they are early mid or late war.
Pink is different from all of those
This picture illustrates what I mean.
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When looking at original examples it's worth mentioning that there is a consistency they have even if they are early mid or late war.
Pink is different from all of those
This picture illustrates what I mean.
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Here is pretty much an example of all the wartime pullovers and the Pink again showing its pink hues and different status
The jackets are all consistent even though the years are different
Pink just doesn't fit
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Nutmeg ,
You did a fine hunting job NO DOUBt.
Great needle in a hay stack found.
But like all art it always comes back to the paint and canvas being correct.
owenComment
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Hi,
Just to refresh memories :
- "Minsk Film" movie studio or whatever you can call it never existed (i translated what was written on the stamp, and various Russian collectors debunked the "Minsk Film" fantasy theory).
- if Russian movie studios used German period uniforms, i never found any SS camo in any of the 1945-1980 Russian war movie (i checked most B&W and color movies).
- the first batch of Pink smocks were sold by Johannes Floch ("famous" for surfacing originals... and for spreading fakes, check Google), sold for 1/5 to1/10 of the price of original smocks in the early 80's.
- stamps seemed to have been a "trick" to explain that the Pink smocks came from a "big batch of smocks found in a Belarus movie studio".
The stamps on the original plane tree smock imo are here just to confuse and to trick people. It will not be the first time that original items are "pimped" with additional fake infos, here to "accreditate" that the Pink smocks are coming from a "legit source" and "remained hidden for decades ("this is why no one heard of the Pink smock baby !")".
- i would love to see any logical and factual explanation about the Belarus > Czechoslovakia > Floch connection... All that before the fall of the Iron Curtain in the 80's. The "Russian connection" is a very usual trick used to pass fake items, supposed "taken from Russian archives/museums/etc". At least one Pink smock was promoted by an US seller as "been bought illegally from the Moscow Museum after the fall of CCCP in the early 90's".
- construction of Pink smocks is exclusive to them, and Pink smocks are the only "Oak Leaf" models with extra fantasy drawn parts (see below, amazing work and discovery by Disco Partisan, member here).
To prove that German or even SS clothing items exist in Russian films doesn't imply that a) Minsk Film existed (it doesn't) and b) Pink smocks (with fantasy drawn parts) are WWII period made (they are not).
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
Carl Sagan, "Cosmos" episode 12, (December 14, 1980).
We are waiting the "evidences" about the Pinkie...
The only evidences are that they are post-war, and were retailed by Johannes Floch in the early 80's.
See You
VinceComment
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Owen,
I understand your points and agree completely that these are somewhat different from the standard item. Proven , no argument on my part. .
But IMO that does not make them fake or post war. They show up around 1980 selling for around $150.00 each , some are mint, some washed and some rodent damaged. Some (not all) are marked with Soviet film company markings. Was it really worth it to create these highly detailed printed smocks in those days for that little money? Then age and wash some and to some add Soviet film markings that would only be known by seeing what was in the studios behind the iron curtain to dupe Western collectors who couldn't know of that anyway? Then why stamp other types of SS smocks and uniforms with the same studio markings?Comment
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The easy answer is movie Costumes.
Made for a production that we don't know.
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The complex answer can be 2 fold
Made by foreign army as look a like jacket based on m-42 oak jacket.
Or
Made a a money maker to fill gap in market as not many smocks were in the market place.
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I've worked with movie companies and costume shops as you have I'm sure . None made bulk costumes with this kind of meticulous attention to detail (at least in the pre 1980s period) , materials and construction because there is no reason for it. Cost prohibitive and for background extras this kind of work wouldn't read on film anyway. A better guess might be copies of SS smocks made by an Eastern block country in the late 40s for their own troops except they don't show up in photos , at least so far. I did do a lot of online checking of pictures of early Eastern block troops early on, didn't see anything.
Originally posted by kammo man View PostComment
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The movie business is a funny world and anything is possible.
Gone with the wind for example
But that's another different story
Look at wartime US movies
They made US look alike jump suits good for camera and 80 years later don't appear to bad but deeper looking not govt made.
Foreign army made is a possibity.
My first pink had Korean Cammo reenfircing the buttons
We know they used s s Cammo.
It's an endless list that can go on and on.
Look at the real jackets and look at the pink in the middle.
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You are correct , I did a little checking and see they were using SS camouflage (sometimes still with German insignia) during the Korean War. That being the case wouldn't that then place your first pink smock in use at least 30 years before they first surfaced in 1980?
Originally posted by kammo man View PostLast edited by nutmeg; 07-11-2017, 03:16 PM.Comment
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Nutmeg
I am open to them being old.
Just not WW2 German industry made.
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Here are the translations of the two Mosfilm documents posted above.
“Mosfilm”
January,4th 1946
The Ministry of Cinematography of the USSR
Central Accounting department
Copy: to the Military department
With this letter we present acts on arriving from the city of Berlin, equipment and materials and inform you that studio’s acceptance commissions made for safekeeping:
1. The wardrobe department, acts 88/1; 89/2; 90/3; 91/4; 92/5; 93/6;
In the amount of 91.708-40
Chairman of the board
Chief Accountant
To: The Ministry of Cinematography of the USSR
Central Accounting department
Copy: to the Military department
This letter confirms that the mentioned below acts on the equipment and materials from Berlin were received by the Acceptance Commission for their responsible storage:
1. costume shop act #
2. trick photography shop
3. cinematography shop
4. recording shop
Chairman of the Commission
Accountant-generalComment
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Great comparison shots Owen
I see your reasoning for condemning these "Pinks" as being post war.
I find it hard to belief that these smocks would have been made in the
Eastern Block post war. The Communist regime emulating a garment
worn by the arch enemy they so despised with a deep hatred?
I also commend you Nutmeg with your great efforts in revealing the research
into trying to find the origin of the said Smocks.
Along with most SS camo, other items were made from the same print: zelts,
caps, etc...
No Pink pattern zelts, caps etc.. have arisen!Comment
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[QUOTE=FrenchVolunteer;7862806]Hi,
Just to refresh memories :
- "Minsk Film" movie studio or whatever you can call it never existed (i translated what was written on the stamp, and various Russian collectors debunked the "Minsk Film" fantasy theory).
Not quite true. During the German occupation of Minsk there was a studio working under the name "Minsk Film" (Maybe before as well , can't recall offhand). After the Germans left the new company name in 1946 was changed to "Belarus film". The stamps are dated 1947. Could be the stamp maker didn't get the word right away. I'd be willing to bet in immediate postwar Soviet Union things didn't happen instantly or it just reffered to film operations in Minsk.
- if Russian movie studios used German period uniforms, i never found any SS camo in any of the 1945-1980 Russian war movie (i checked most B&W and color movies).
There are some I saw on Utube. Not many though. One was about the Russians capturing the Berlin Zoo. IMO they didn't use them much because they didn't look "German" enough, in the sense of what the public expected German soldiers to look like. Could explain why they got rid of them when the chance for some cash presented itself.Comment
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A selection of original war time cuffs and lower selves
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