Research Soviet Film Studio Markings with regards to Pink Smocks

[kammo man]

I said GOOD CHANCE.


But being rational about the Pinks isn't your strongest point Mr P.

[nutmeg]

Do you have the Mollo book from the 1970s ?
Military Fashion ?

Bought them when they they were first published.


As you are a Nineteenth century guy you know the classics are what will live on both North and South , French Imperial Guard and Highland Jocks Waterloo uniforms etc.

Sure do , even collected French Napoleonic stuff for a while in the 70s. Metal detected the Waterloo and Quatre Bras battlefields in 1976 for a week.

[nutmeg]

It’s hard to argue that point. If the birch smocks are period then there should have been some birch helmet covers found in that cache right along with the OL HBT helmet covers and palm helmet covers that were found there.

Maybe they only made smocks not covers. There is always the possibility the pinks were made but never were issued or got out of Eastern Europe.

Look at the Eastern Turkish SS cufftitle. No record of it being ordered , issued or pictures of it in use. Yet a bunch were found at Dachau which was the sole source for them . If it wasn't for that one stash no one would even believe the SS would even produce a green cuffband for an Eastern unit. And if one did turn up without that stash it would be poo pooed to the high heavens.

[phild]

I’m not wasting more time on this.
In these days I was all over Europe and some eastern countries. I, and other collectors would have noticed Film studio stamps!
Stamps where the only thing we had to identify something in these days!
Look what happens with the Stadni film stamps. Since such a stamp was prove of a genuine item, (in the 80’s) these stamps where faked starting in the 90’s!!!
There are nowadays more Stadni film stamped items on the marked than there was stock in the film studio!!
These “pink” camos are post war. End of story.
That’s all folks …
Marc

Well Marc perhaps it is best that you waste no more time on these. You can believe what you like and I will believe what I know. I know that these stamps were on these smocks when they came to the market 80/81. I was called a liar on this forum nearly 10 years ago for making that claim, but I have since been collaborated by several others who also saw them during that time period. We have also (after 37 years) found some excellent readable examples, inventory dated 1947, and providing us with at least some basic information that no associated with these knew much less "marketed" until very recently.

As I have stated many many times here, in Germany (and in Vienna) during 1981 I encountered a number of these smocks in the hands of several different dealers. Myself and other collecting friends went thru the examples that we ran into and found 3 basic conditions as it relates to the stamps. I use the word "stamps" as a plural because it is important to remember that these smocks so marked actually have 3 separate stamps each, 3 different inks, hand applied number and another hand applied mark through.

Back to the 3 marking states or conditions that were absolutely noted on these smocks in 1980/81 by those who examined enough of them and examined them carefully enough.
1. Stamps intact with slight line through like the examples posted on this thread (both Owen's and Nutmeg's) My wild guess is that this may have been 10 or 20% of what I saw.
2. Stamps that were defaced by bleaching, heavy inking (10cm blobs of ink!) and even cutting out of material. I would estimate this as about 60% of what I recall seeing
3. Smocks that had no trace of any stamps ever having been applied. I would say these may have been about 20% as well.


I do agree with you on one point and that is property stamps started being faked in the 90s (not 1980) after it had been established in the late 80s arrivals what they signified.

I recall the stamps found in these smocks being discussed at several shows during the early 80s in Germany and no one knew what they were, but they certainly were not a selling point.....that I promise you!

If people think that these smocks are fake, that is fine with me as I don't care anymore (what people think, not what is real and what is not!) but I do not like it when people misstate facts.

[pete]

Phil, without the recollections of all you guys who were there back then and saw all this, coupled with the other knowledge about finds and stamps and the patterns we would be nowhere now. If Mr Floch is sitting on paperwork, for some reason, i wouldn't be surprised. I think it would be quite easy to find a way to release the bit of info we need here without compromising or damaging to modern day people who were involved, or chains, sources. Can anybody negotiate it? I think this is the reason for the silence in the day and age of instant info, otherwise we keep revisiting the same obvious things. I would settle just on that info and be happy with it, fake, surplus or not, i'm sure most would. Personally i would even be happy with the stamps as they are now because of the historical trends and the other items, only technically its exciting and most professional to approach it with forensics.


P

[RobertE]

Who is the source of the FILTHY story ?
Why do you say this?

The descriptions of the bales in previous postings describe bundles with rodent residue, dirt, and general poor storage.

s/f Robert

[RobertE]

As I have stated many many times here, in Germany (and in Vienna) during 1981 I encountered a number of these smocks in the hands of several different dealers. Myself and other collecting friends went thru the examples that we ran into and found 3 basic conditions as it relates to the stamps. I use the word "stamps" as a plural because it is important to remember that these smocks so marked actually have 3 separate stamps each, 3 different inks, hand applied number and another hand applied mark through.

Back to the 3 marking states or conditions that were absolutely noted on these smocks in 1980/81 by those who examined enough of them and examined them carefully enough.
1. Stamps intact with slight line through like the examples posted on this thread (both Owen's and Nutmeg's) My wild guess is that this may have been 10 or 20% of what I saw.
2. Stamps that were defaced by bleaching, heavy inking (10cm blobs of ink!) and even cutting out of material. I would estimate this as about 60% of what I recall seeing
3. Smocks that had no trace of any stamps ever having been applied. I would say these may have been about 20% as well.

I do agree with you on one point and that is property stamps started being faked in the 90s (not 1980) after it had been established in the late 80s arrivals what they signified.

I recall the stamps found in these smocks being discussed at several shows during the early 80s in Germany and no one knew what they were, but they certainly were not a selling point.....that I promise you!

Thanks for this direct knowledge on the find period, Phil. I appreciate your recollections of the numbers found between stamped, defaced, and unmarked examples.

s/f Robert

[phild]

Nutmeg

I confess to some slight sarcasm in my post on the covers, you may not have picked up on that. I was saying that we know of other patterns and fabrics in which smocks were produced but no helmet covers were made to match and or survive today. The same is true of zelts in all smock patterns and materials, but over and over we keep seeing some try to single the birch smocks out for this same situation. I agree with your suggestions on classes of items not leaving the East.

Pete

I am very happy with the stamps and what they indicate to us. I have learned a lot from the work posted on these stamps over the last few years.


RobertE

Yes, many of these that I saw had storage damage consistent with rodent chewing. When I encountered the hole cut out in the pockets I recall that they were all frayed which told me that they had been washed at some point AFTER they had been cut.

You bring up another fact that has not been talked about a lot here and that is the wide range of storage condition that were encountered with these. That was common when original hoards were and are found but unheard of then when mass fakes were introduced. Fakes like Stalingrad shields and vast numbers of other awards and insignia were either introduced aged or mint depending on what the people behind the scam wanted the buyers to fall for.

[kammo man]

The descriptions of the bales in previous postings describe bundles with rodent residue, dirt, and general poor storage.

s/f Robert

So you don't know FIRSTHAND of this.

If you don't its Heresay.

[RobertE]

Do you think you a making a revelation here? Of course I wasn't there; neither were you or most of the other posters. If that's your point, it's of no value.

Phil was the closest to the find, but he and others have posted consensus findings - all who were closest to the find have declared the condition to be as I've stated, as you've read in previous threads. Posters here also have examples with rodent and other damage; I sold one with pretty good damage.

You've never questioned the condition of the items when found, until now. Strange.

s/f Robert

[kammo man]

Have you seen the rat holes



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[kammo man]

I hVe talked about the condition many times
You refuse to read my posts fully


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[RobertE]

Good try, but I do read your posts.

Yes, I have seen them with rodent-made holes, and I have sold one with rodent damage to a member here on the forum.

s/f Robert

[kammo man]

Do you have photographic proof of your claims

It's a simple

Yes or no answer


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[RobertE]

I took pictures for the buyer, yes.