SS tunic

[cossack1648]

Seems like a nice tunic. I wonder what you think about it.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=813233

[John Pic]

A fantastic tunic with all the right insignias....you can see a few of the Das Reich officers wearing the Belgian and even the French made eagles including Otto Weidinger and Ernst Krag.

[cossack1648]

I like it too, but can't figure out if period applied or restored. I have a feeling it's period, but it is only a feeling and it can be wrong.

jack

[NickG]

"the jacket was a heer jacket but transfered to SS"

Not sure what that is supposed to mean? jackets don't transfer personnel who own jackets do!
So was he in Heer dienst and went to W-SS? The explained soldier's history does not state that...
In other words it was a "used" 2nd hand Heer uniform (Heer breast eagle ghost???) which he obtained as a"used" uniform
for W-SS service? Why? Officers received kleiderkasse money (allowance) to purchase a (newly tailored) uniform!
Now with a washed out tailor tag...?? and tag re-written with this SS officers name? had a Heer officer name earlier?
Is that what he is trying to say? Confused... Nice uniform and parts otherwise!

[John Pic]

Not always true NickG plenty of SS officers who transferred from the heer kept their old uniforms. Mike Davis had a great example on his site . Probably more common than not.

[cossack1648]

It is a private made jacked by a tailor. Was Belgian tailor using two separate cut styles for army and W-SS uniforms. It is my guess, but I think he probably cut them the same way and then applied proper insignia. I think collectors familiar with Belgian tailor practices could help.

Jack

[NickG]

Not always true NickG plenty of SS officers who transferred from the heer kept their old uniforms. Mike Davis had a great example on his site . Probably more common than not.

I totally agree with that transfer scenario. Look at Degrelle's Walloons who were transferred en masse to W-SS.I am not questioning that possibility occurring during the war. (Same with Estonians, more common than not! Look at RK trager Maj. Alfons Rebane (from Estonia)

This Flemish officer on the other hand does NOT sound like he is a Heer transfer because few Flemish served in Heer to begin with...
and the seller of the tunic is not mentioning the branch transfer. (only Westland -Wiking-Das Reich transfers ...all W-SS units as expected!)
He is only stating;" the jacket started out as a Heer tunic but transfered to SS ???" (NOT the soldier...so a used jacket?) Still confused!
Again his service record indicates 1941-1945 W-SS service only. Maybe the seller can elaborate on why he is calling it a Heer tunic?

[viva_giulio]

There is an evidente shadow of breast eagle that's the reason of the seller theory.

[NickG]

It is a private made jacked by a tailor. Was Belgian tailor using two separate cut styles for army and W-SS uniforms. It is my guess, but I think he probably cut them the same way and then applied proper insignia. I think collectors familiar with Belgian tailor practices could help.

Jack

Huh? 2 separate cut styles for army and W-SS??? You lost me Jack...
The only possible difference is that W-SS officers tunics more often had 5 buttons and Heer 6 buttons...These are essentially twins for officers!
This tunic has 5 buttons, a button count more prevalent with SS officers...(but not a water tight rule btw!)

There is an evidente shadow of breast eagle that's the reason of the seller theory.

I get that. It is the only distinction (besides rank insignia obviously) between the 2 services (position of eagle and ghost left)....
but my question is WHY? Strange theory!
So an SS officer (who never served in Heer, not a transer) would use his Kleiderkasse allowance to buy a USED army (Heer) dress uniform?
Are those even available? Bottom line: if you are not a branch transfer, why the Heer uniform scenario? (converted with rank SS insignia?)
This is not a hand-me-down field uniform from some depot out of a pile to be grabbed and used for field (combat) use!
This is a private property custom tailored (or off the rack) officers quality uniform! His service started in the SS in 1941....

Btw soldiers with Flemish names did serve in the Walloon (Heer) Regiment, = army service, especially those from Brussels who were Rex party members,so a Walloon Heer transfer (with Flemish name, a "Brusselaar" ) to W-SS happened, but not in this scenario... not a possibility ...
much too early...that took place in June of 1944! His W-SS service record started in 1941 in Westland according to the seller!
Still confused with "Heer uniform" comment by seller! Oh well...

I am not attacking the uniform btw ,it is an awesome piece of history and researched... Just questioning the "ex-Heer uniform" comment by the seller, as it just does not fit the officer's service record...(strictly W-SS service) that's all...Puzzling to me...such a recycled (army) uniform,
unless it is not the case...but why describe it as such? Now images of the officer in this very same uniform would settle this matter...
(even if it has a washed out and re-written tailor tag in it)

[viva_giulio]

I have your position. This tunic was proposed around also some.months ago now have this story and increase (a lot) the value. I do not judge the story as always.
If he secondary tinue the good research and discover the soldier was an heer officier all could more believable to me. At the moment missing a link in the chain and not a seconday link cause from an extremely rare untouched nominative is easy to pass in a heer rebadged ss tunic.

[Bob Hritz]

The odd embroidery style of the cuff title makes me nervous. It appears to be hand embroidered in flatwire style. I have never seen one, yet, that gives me confidence. I have seen plenty of post war copies in this style.

Bob Hritz

[cbuehler]

While I think that runes tab is probably good, I know a lot of people that would reject it out of hand if I had it loose and presented it to them.
I like the way it shows some wear on the top right corner.
As with the cuff title, without seeing the reverse of them, it is not possible to absolutely sure about them, and sometimes even that is not always a positive way to authenticate them.
When it comes to wire bullion insignia, its often just a guess.

CB

[Felix]

The odd embroidery style of the cuff title makes me nervous. It appears to be hand embroidered in flatwire style. I have never seen one, yet, that gives me confidence. I have seen plenty of post war copies in this style.

Bob Hritz

I agree with Bob here. The cuff title in question is very close/matching with known fake flatwire cuff titles. Based on the pics provided the cuff title is not original IMO.

//Felix

[NickG]

The plot thickens....
It was on the market before... reserved and sold before...Note the seller's description at the time (pasted below!)
No mention of this Belgian officer! So absolutely no description of it being ID'd to a particular person...(Julien Roekens, a Belgium volunteer as claimed)
Also no close up of the washed out tag in the seller's listing at the time...That would have been valuable information!! (to research)
Now it has an ID all of a sudden! A name (penned in) and a history + documentation?...Certainly makes me ponder the question ; authentic ID?...

Was it researched later? There is documentation shown in the WAF sales thread (posted here now) but no documentation when it was offered originally...???
Certainly makes me wonder about the re-seller's "story" and back up documentation (and the fact that the so called Belgian volunteer never served in the Heer...???)
This according to the research provided... but the uniform is a Heer transfer piece...??? Something does not add up at all!
It is all highly suspicious to me and now this (older sale) revelation!

Also the asking price doubled all of a sudden with this Belgian officer's identity being disclosed... (discovered??)
Caveat emptor !!!!!


__________________________________________________ _____
Seller's description at the time : ( a seasoned dealer who would have mentioned the ID at the time...but no mention...anonymous tunic)

WaffenSS Officers Tunic "SS Untersturmfuhrer"
Very nice and rare to find WaffenSS officers tunic.
With "Das Reich" flatwire cufftitle. The tunic comes from an old private collection. It was allways like this,
but during the war theymust have used a former Wehrmacht tunic and re-used it for this WaffenSS officer.
But there for we offer this tunic to you for a very reasonable price!
An Waffen SS tunic is extreemly hard to find and they sell for 9000/10.000 and more if you can even buy one.
Becauce of the former Wehrmacht tunic we offer this tunic cheap.
In worn but good condition.

[viva_giulio]

i had (have) same concerns on ct but also yesterday i received a positive comments and seems in some 70's Mollo book.
Excuse me but... it's beliavable the tag missing all except ink and the exact surname?


Sorry but for me it's too much. Sorry again.