Rare SS Meissen Plate identification requested

[90th Light]

This appears to be Weihnachten or War Christmas.

Normally "Weihnachten" is written with the year. This is what Thorsten stated about it in that thread;

The responsible designer for the Julplates at Meissen was Richard Hajesch and I guess this one was his work as well.
Other ones have shown up for example at Hermann Historica within the last years - definitely we can see a family candleholder with the Lebensrune, obviously a typical home-made piece like many SS-items look being made within each different SS-Standarte or Abschnitt, not official for the whole SS but nonetheless official for each Standarte or Abschnitt.

Since the child is there I assume that the candleholder could be his birthday candleholder - used at Jultide as well as on his birthday - remember that the Julleuchter was also in use for wedding ceremonies and other family festivities.

I have one of these wooden birthday candleholders as well and it bears carved signs of the zodiac and was made in 1944 - most of these items are either still undiscovered or - because of this circumstance - landed already in the trash-can.

Chris

[J. Wraith]

Normally "Weihnachten" is written with the year. This is what Thorsten stated about it in that thread;

Chris

Don't think it has to be and no written rule, that's what it appears to depict. Neat plate.

[90th Light]

Don't think it has to be and no written rule, that's what it appears to depict. Neat plate.

I think at first it appears to be a Christmas plate but the more I look at it the more I see the symbols of strength through battle/ defence/ honour/ family/ the tree that stays green (life) even in the darkest of winters .

There are no actual symbols of Christmas

The pine tree branches are in the form of a "stand" in the shape of a deers antler with the sword like on the Carpathian Korps badge from WW1 (shown below)

Those SS candle holders were used at all important Nazi festive events on the calender and not just Christmas. In fact the they have SS meaning in their own right.

And look at the beam of light from the candle, it is the sunwheel swaz so typical of the SS/ Volks plate series,

Chris

[J. Wraith]

I think at first it appears to be a Christmas plate but the more I look at it the more I see the symbols of strength through battle/ defence/ honour/ family/ the tree that stays green (life) even in the darkest of winters .

There are no actual symbols of Christmas

The pine tree branches are in the form of a "stand" in the shape of a deers antler with the sword like on the Carpathian Korps badge from WW1 (shown below)

Those SS candle holders were used at all important Nazi festive events on the calender and not just Christmas. In fact the they have SS meaning in their own right.

And look at the beam of light from the candle, it is the sunwheel swaz so typical of the SS/ Volks plate series,

Chris

Sun wheel is generally early, not the case here as it depicts war scenes. I am looking at the fir and the toys and the children. Keep in mind that most of the weichnachten porcelain is Rosenthal and not Meissen so i am not sure I have the answer. Nothing that says you cant incorporate symbols of strength into a christmas plate as that is the culture.

[J. Wraith]

Looks like some wording behind the vehicle on the top right above the sword but cant make it out, could be foot soldiers as well. Its certainly a busy plate.

[90th Light]

Sun wheel is generally early, not the case here as it depicts war scenes. I am looking at the fir and the toys and the children. Keep in mind that most of the weichnachten porcelain is Rosenthal and not Meissen so i am not sure I have the answer. Nothing that says you cant incorporate symbols of strength into a christmas plate as that is the culture.

Yes I agree,

The Christmas of 1944 was a bleak one for the Germans. Who knows this might just be a Christmas 1944 plate. What else could you produce when the Russian steam roller is knocking on your door or perhaps more accurately going to knock down your door and house completely over .

I know the old people in NZ, use to tell me (when I first started collecting) how bleak the Christmas of 1941 was. The Japanese were on their way, nothing stopping them at that stage. The best soldiers that New Zealand had were in Afrika and that was not going well for the British forces. Things were bleak to say the least.

It is for sure a neat Meissen plate with a lot of historical representation in more ways than one,

Chris

[J. Wraith]

Yes I agree,

The Christmas of 1944 was a bleak one for the Germans. Who knows this might just be a Christmas 1944 plate. What else could you produce when the Russian steam roller is knocking on your door or perhaps more accurately going to knock down your door and house completely over .

I know the old people in NZ, use to tell me (when I first started collecting) how bleak the Christmas of 1941 was. The Japanese were on their way, nothing stopping them at that stage. The best soldiers that New Zealand had were in Afrika and that was not going well for the British forces. Things were bleak to say the least.

It is for sure a neat Meissen plate with a lot of historical representation in more ways than one,

Chris

Makes for an interesting piece, I do not think I have ever seen it but if I did I would probably move to buy it on the spot depending on the cost. The SS question is interesting and they really did tend to be subtle, and their cultural mentality although different in many cases blends very well with National Socialism as it pertains to certain things more than others. So its not out of the question for this piece, getting the answer would be more than difficult as the artist is probably the only guy who knows what he was thinking. Its very cool.

[90th Light]

Makes for an interesting piece, I do not think I have ever seen it but if I did I would probably move to buy it on the spot depending on the cost. The SS question is interesting and they really did tend to be subtle, and their cultural mentality although different in many cases blends very well with National Socialism as it pertains to certain things more than others. So its not out of the question for this piece, getting the answer would be more than difficult as the artist is probably the only guy who knows what he was thinking. Its very cool.

Yes these are rare plates. The problem is that Meissen will not even acknowledge there existance let alone give any help or information about them. Thus at this stage we just do not know any more.

The one SS example that Texasuberalles shows in post number 11 could make Euro 2000 may be even more. It is blatantly clear that it is SS, unit specific and as rare as hens teeth today. These simply have not survived and who knows for sure how many were even made in the first place.

Exceedingly rare stuff and the best of quality that there is,

Chris

[J. Wraith]

Yes these are rare plates. The problem is that Meissen will not even acknowledge there existance let alone give any help or information about them. Thus at this stage we just do not know any more.

The one SS example that Texasuberalles shows in post number 11 could make Euro 2000 may be even more. It is blatantly clear that it is SS, unit specific and as rare as hens teeth today. These simply have not survived and who knows for sure how many were even made in the first place.

Exceedingly rare stuff and the best of quality that there is,

Chris

Lot of companies run away when you mention the era, not unusual. Whole bunch lost records too so they have none. Meissen is readily identifiable although they knock these off quite a bit. The SS plate would be an auction piece I think.

[Capt. R]

I really like the blue plates a lot. Beautiful imagery. I doubt they are specifically ss.

[Michael Fay]

Hello Micheal,

it came from a very advanced Meissen collector who had a complete set of the 1938 & 1939 Meissen catalogues. The series is in the catalogues and the titles are listed but not all the plates are illustrated. Perhaps they were in the process of being issued..."



Chris

Hello Chris, as my PM to you was explaining-you will need to provide proof like a photo of the catalog page with the plate series and show the title of the series actually reads "SS" in the series of plates you are showing as this is not anything known as distinctly SS.

It is a handsome plate in it's own right...but not SS in my opinion unless real proof can be found.

[90th Light]

Hello Chris, as my PM to you was explaining-you will need to provide proof like a photo of the catalog page with the plate series and show the title of the series actually reads "SS" in the series of plates you are showing as this is not anything known as distinctly SS.

It is a handsome plate in it's own right...but not SS in my opinion unless real proof can be found.

Hello Micheal,

sorry for my delay in replying. I have been locating where the catalogues have gone to. Cutting a long story short. The collector died some years ago but I have now found out where the paper work from his collecton wound up.

I have contacted where it is residing and I have been invited to come and see it again. Thus I will ask if I can take a photo of the appropriate sections.

What I had forgotten is that this is a factory catalogue complete with an inventory listing of what was actually in stock at the time. The new owner told these are check lists for a Meissen Austrian distributor of what is being held in the warehouse at the time (1938 & 39).

This will involve me having to take a trip to another city to get these images so I can not really add any more until that is done.

Once I get the images then we can see what your interpretation (based on your ongoing experience) of these catalogue and inventory listings are,

Chris

[90th Light]

Here is another Meissen piece that is seemingly SS from the time

" This is an absolutely incredible sculpture called "The Alarm." It depicts two SS men in uniform reacting to an emergency call. There is another one in this series, similar except for the fact that the participants are SA instead of SS ",

Chris

[90th Light]

More images of the of what is supposed to be a sculpture of SS in post 28.

I wonder if the distributor had any of these in stock in Austria in 1939/40 ?

However, I can not see any SS insignia but they look to be SS uniforms ???

Chris

[90th Light]

Here is some thing interesting about this period and "The Alarm" sculpture that I have used the computer to translate. Hopefully interesting and informative if you can follow it,

Chris


Vieil Oligarque

Visitatore

Re: 300 years of Meissen porcelain
«Risposta # 1 il: Gennaio 23, 2010, 06:55:43 pm»
Meissen and the brown stain

Today the Meissen porcelain factory celebrates its 300th birthday. This is obviously a cause for celebration. However, the company passes this a problematic part of your own history.


By Axel Granzow

DUSSELDORF. The Duke of Windsor was visibly impressed. Almost majestically stands the former British monarch Edward VIII in the middle of the painting department of the State Porcelain Manufactory Meissen eyed by Nazi officials, including Saxony Gauleiter Martin Mutschmann, the factory's managing director Curt tanks and Wallis Simpson, his wife, for which he in 1936 out of love had renounced the throne. Whether the Duke has noticed that his appearance of Nazi propaganda was used to convey an image of salvation Hitler's Germany to the world? It is not known. Maybe he was for it, given the tom-tom about his person simply too vain.

For the porcelain factory but the visit October 19, 1937 was a very big day. Was she still in a row with the Daimler-Benz plants in Stuttgart at the flagship establishments of the regime, which visited the couple on his ten-day tour of Germany, which included an audience with the leader in the vacation home on the Obersalzberg and the visit of a concentration camp. However, until today it is a largely unknown because hushed episode in the now three hundred year history of the manufactory.

A good hour visited the Windsors the work. Then we went to lunch up on the Albrecht Castle in the castle cellar. The list of gifts for almost 1,600 Reichsmarks was long: Among them were the equestrian figure Henry the Lion, the Guelphs king revered Nazi ideologues found as a colonizer of the East. Porcelain objects as diplomatic gifts are a tradition since the 18th century. Two salad bowls are the way "got lost" in the castle cellar, as has been noted.

On the occasion of the planned exhibitions and celebrations of the 300th anniversary of the Saxon State Office this year can be found on the history of the manufacture and the role of china in the "Third Reich" but not a single exhibition. Even in Germany Porcelain Museum, the Porzellanikon in Selb, in spite of an extensive program for the anniversary in Meissen, no mention of "China in the Third Reich". The one wants to make up for, it says. Interfere own history while celebrating?

In Meissen even you is in any case preoccupied with the realignment of the manufactory. From the traditional porcelain brand "Art in the luxury segment" should be, so to speak, the Porsche in a china shop. Website and advertising are already adapted to the new image - the dark side of their own history worth mentioning, do not fit the new lifestyle image.

Meissen manufactory boss Christian Kurtzke, who replaced the still originating from GDR times, managing director of the Saxon State Office end of 2008, plague any case, at the time quite different concerns. The economic crisis has the luxury porcelain manufacturer fully caught. In 2008, the factory had an operating loss of six million euros on sales of 35 million euros. 2009 should have gone not much better, despite the relaunch of the brand. Meissen in Saxony so that a grant operation - had set as indeed already in the 30s of the last century than manufacture more on artistic production. Kurtzke, like many of his predecessors a balancing act itself: preserve the cultural heritage and economic success. Because apparently there's no time for questions about the Nazi past as a spokeswoman sent a message.

But in addition to fine tableware and elaborate figures belonged political china to the fixed program of the factory - not just during the Nazi era. Also in the GDR was the noble porcelain as a material for policy whether as a source of foreign currency for export or propaganda tool: From Lenin on the bust of Stalin up to the mountain man "Adolf Hennecke," the and "hero of labor" of the GDR regime "Activist of the first hour," handed the range of small-scale sculpture. Also on medals, plaques and memory plates there is a flood of political motives, often with the worst symbolism.

But that was nothing compared to the years before 1945: The leader Adolf Hitler in martial Feldherrenpose 60 cm high and 56 cm wide, in white for 400 Reichsmarks (RM) or in brown Böttgersteinzeug for 450 RM. Under the Order O259 was the work from 1939, designed by Robert Ullmann, a renowned sculptor from Austria to relate in Meissen. Not an isolated case: One more bust of Hitler was produced. It was designed by Ernst Seger, as can be seen on Militaria relevant pages in the Internet. Seger was also Ullmann as the favorite artists of the leader, who were immortalized on a "Gottbegnadeten list" so-called. On it were over 1000 artists that should be protected at the front before use. The models of the Hitler busts should now have been destroyed.

Other concoctions? So Ullmann, First World War General and member of the Reichstag by the Nazis designed, next to the bust of Hitler even bust "Ludendorff" (1941 model year). Two apolitical at first glance female nudes "Looking" and "meaning the end" (Model 1941), but in its aesthetics corresponded to the Nazi era taste, from Ullmann are still available in brown or white between 1400-2200 euros.

But that's not the embarrassment: "Hitler Boy with Drum" (model year 1939) or "BDM girl" (model year 1939) already existed for 57 or 52 RM. Expensive, however, the groups of figures "SA-alarm" or "SS-group" were (both in 1939). They cost around 300 RM significantly more and were only available in brown Böttgersteinzeug.

The Nazi kitsch, the then artistic director of the manufactory, Erich Oehme designed. From Oehme, many animal sculptures are sold by the today date, at least two medals with leader head and a Hitler / Mussolini badge. These and lots of other commemorative medals with swastika symbol are still often sold on the Internet at coin dealers or auction on Ebay; Figures and plaques as "Winter Relief Fund of the German people" with Hitler-head from 1933 by Paul Börner are occasionally found on relevant websites Militaria on offer. By Paul Siegert also a Göringbüste (model year 1941) was born. Seger 1935, designed a Hindenburg bust for the manufactory. In addition, wall panels adorned motives for example the Hitler birthplace Braunau painted by Hermann Limbach. Also to see more on Ebay or other internet forums.

With this, their "brown" History, the Manufaktur Meissen is struggling. In this case, this was a market that have all served, says the art historian Christian Lechelt, who has worked as one of the few researchers with time. However, had the state-owned enterprises, such as the Factories Meissen, KPM (Royal Porcelain Manufactory Berlin) Nymphenburg in Munich or the Thuringian State Porcelain Factory (now as elder Volkstedter Porcelain Manufactory a company of Seltmann Weiden group) excelled. From the Thüringer Manufactory comes, for example, the "Hand grenade launcher", an infantry soldier in white porcelain, which swings back bent far back to throw a stick grenade, probably designed by Gustav Oppel. The figure is one of the most impressive sculptures soldiers - still available on the Internet for 12500 U.S. dollars. Especially in the U.S. there seems to be a fan base for such porcelain.

"Systematic studies there with us about the history of the factory during the Nazi period yet," admits Meissen archive manager Peter Brown. In addition, in the GDR was dealing with the Nazi era as a taboo. Only after the reunification opened the archives. Today is for search "no time," said Brown. And not every work of art that was created during this period could be retrospectively devalued as bad.

"But we do not want it conceal: Even the Böttgersteinzeug was for the". "Abused ideology" brown Probably so many have fallen the association of the political with the color of the material. The impossible from today's perspective works as the leader bust or the SS group and SA-alarm should not only cause shaking of the head, but to be understood as a historical warning signs. Now once belonged to the history of the factory, as well as the "agitprop" or "Soviet porcelain", which was produced in GDR times. In addition to the politician busts include colorful vases painted with portraits of Marx and Engels.

But the brown Porzellanspuk also had another side, an operational policy. Thus, the porcelain manufactories and factories could save away about the war and especially its capital, the porcelain painter, protect them from the front line, including Rosenthal. Originally Aryanised owned by Jews and the Nazis work for example, put forth not only dinnerware for the fleet of Nazi holiday organization KDF, but also common on the internet traded or at antique markets such as in Dortmund offered porcelain image with a Hitler portrait for a motive the painter Willy Exner. There are also a pendant with the image of Hermann Goering. Both images were offered together in Dortmund for 1000 euros. Also in Selb do you a hard time with the Nazi past. "Our history in the" Third Reich "is not yet come," confirmed a spokeswoman Rosenthal.

The same can be heard even at Villeroy & Boch. In the book about the 260-year history of the porcelain factory, the time is completely excluded. But are coffee mugs and wall plates produced with relevant symbols, a spokeswoman said. "A leader bust of KPM is not known to us, however, plaques and reliefs with Hitler's head."

How important porcelain and especially porcelain art at that time possessed, also shows that the Schutzstaffel of the NSDAP, the "SS" in Allach near Munich own manufactory same operation, the small sculpture produced, including figures of soldiers or BDM girl and boy - today desirable collectors' items.

A Nazi porcelain art in the sense of art historical style but it is not given, Lechelt said. Nevertheless, there have been efforts to define tasks and design of porcelain - and by the leader himself: "I see it as the most important task is to find a form that meets the demands of the present for simplicity and simplicity just, and a dignified attitude preserved, "Hitler should have said during a visit by Grassi Museum in Leipzig 1934. Especially harnesses the KPM had been presented in this sense, repeated as exemplary, says Lechelt. Even today, touting the now private KPM with the "clean lines" of 1938, designed by Trude Petri dishes Services "Urania".

Something like the "purveyor" of the political elite of the "Third Reich" was but been Nymphenburg. From there, for example, came tableware for the Fuhrer in Munich, the parlor car of Hitler, the New Reich Chancellery and Hitler's holiday retreat, or temporary seat of government on the Obersalzberg near Berchtesgaden. Also, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Joachim Ribbentrop was under a good customer, even in Meissen. Nymphenburg have produced numerous figures of soldiers, confirmed Nymphenburg expert Alfred digit, a traditional business of Bavaria, including a 26 cm high "SS Jungschützen". Such figures were outstandingly suitable as a diplomatic gift.

Meissen stands by his figures but out particularly. But even a tea set with the red dragon is busy, which was used on the Obersalzberg. Because above all, Meissen had the expertise and the artists procured the porcelain sculpture reputation. His fragility and the porcelain ascribed grace and delicacy in the expression would, however, can not bring generally in accordance with the desired by the Nazis in sculptures suggestion of "power", "strength" and especially "eternity", so Lechelt. Hummel figurines, for example, usually rather cute and plump children figurines, were unpopular with the Nazis, wanted were "heroic" representations. The eagle was in the animal sculpture a popular motif as well as the German Shepherd.

But political porcelain alone was not enough to keep the factories as unimportant war operations before closing. Also, defense contracts were accepted. In particular, the preparation of unit tableware in white version for "bombed out", as it was known in Meissen, provided an alibi for carrying on. Villeroy & Boch held the factory with the production of tiles for barracks in work.

But were also prepared pure armaments, occupy as porcelain body for an Air Force program of Rheinmetall-Borsig, such as files in the company archives in Meissen. Experimented with the production of acid containers for the U-boat force, as can be seen from a letter of the Torpedo Experimental Station Eckernförde from March 1942 - but apparently in vain. Because the supply of which was urged. A first container was cracked in the kiln. As part of the armament program of the Special Technical Ceramics ring at the Reich Minister for Armaments and Munitions, metal tubes for further processing in the Meissen factory Mesco were burns up in the ovens. Finally, there were porcelain inserts for rocket-propelled grenades in the production program of the world famous porcelain factory.

Styles from china for hand grenades, electrical insulators or hot water bottles have also produced Rosenthal, a spokeswoman confirmed. Porcelain served as a substitute for the war to the increasingly difficult fundraising metal. Also Nymphenburg has changed the assortment according to number and produced the end of 1941 to almost 80 percent technical items for the Air Force. Details of the scope of the military production of manufactures are naturally sparse. Early 1944 to Meissen 70 percent of total production be accounted for by use porcelain, "the main thing for bomb victims, export and urgent domestic needs."

The Saxon state government as the owner was concerned since the Weimar period with the economic rehabilitation of the factory, its focus on artistic porcelain brought under Max Adolph Pfeiffer world fame, but also cost a lot of money. Even after the takeover by the Nazis Meissen holding on to his new style that despite numerous attempts of the Saxon Gauleiter Martin Mutschmann, production on the diffuse term "German art to" rally. The bone of contention was mainly expressionist figures of porcelain designer Paul Scheurich, the Mutschmann had criticized as not "up to date".

The chronic loss paved the officials in Dresden but probably more worried. Pfeiffer finally had to go. An art-loving free spirit would not tolerate the new rulers at the top of a state enterprise, Brown says of the Meissen manufactory. It was the hour of the party faithful beaten with which economic positions were occupied mostly without regard to their qualifications. Money earned the Meissen manufactory still with the traditional products and patterns, especially "onion pattern" and "Red Dragon".

Only under Wolfgang Müller of Baczko from November 1936, a specialist in ceramics and business management, the factory took its feet again. 1939 was the "turning point towards recovery operation" achieved mainly through a "correction of the sale prices," as it says in the annual report. Contributed to this probably also the good economic development in Germany, the arming for war. The turnover of the factory increased by 28 percent to 3.6 million RM. Government grants in order to report a break-even result can were, apparently no longer needed or had been characterized at least reduced.

With the outbreak of the war, the situation changed dramatically. Conscription for military service sensitive tore gaps in the ranks of the employees of the factories. 150 employees of a total of nearly 750 were drafted into the Wehrmacht in Meissen in December 1939. Foreign workers were employed at least one worker from Eastern Europe is on record. In Nymphenburg eight forced laborers had been parked for simple relief work since the end of 1942, as paragraph says. They lived partly on the factory premises. "We have, according to witnesses not use forced labor employed," said a spokeswoman for the KPM. The loss of well-trained porcelain painter but that was not to be replaced.

The raw materials were scarce. Soon there was no more to the usual way to decorate harnesses and vases with a gold border gold. About 90 percent of total sales accounted for gilded products, according to a letter of complaint to the Reichsbank branch Meissen October 1939. Orders had to be rejected.

It is unclear why Mueller of Baczko, left the factory in July 1940. Probably he had fallen out of favor in Dresden. Maybe it sticking to the controversial artist Scheurich has cost the office. With six Scheurich characters (and the otter by Max Esser) in 1937 but still won the Grand Prix at the International Exhibition in Paris. Reported is an outburst Mutschmanns during a dispute with Mueller of Baczko on issues of art and economics: "I just wish that time would eene Fliecherbombe einschlachen in the manufactory, so the Ärcher uffhörte".

From Baczko successor, the agent Curt tanks, since 1936 in the factory as a senior clerk, Mutschmanns was man so to speak and connected family. The Gauleiter was the godfather of the carapace son (born in 1919). Panzer knew Mutschmann from its time as a textile manufacturer in Plauen in the fledgling Weimar Republic.

Took place shortly before the end of the war in the course of mobilization among armaments minister Albert Speer, by letter dated July 28, 1944, which bears the stamp of confidentiality, the command for partial closure. 300 workers should "as soon as possible in favor of the Hunter program manufactured by Radio Mende" be implemented, which produced radio and telecommunications equipment for Hitler's army. That would have been the corner.

But Mutschmann sat down personally for the manufactory. After protests against the spear-plans he can tell on the back of a copy of the spear statement that he only impart his consent, "provided that the porcelain factory production takes over under its own control, so that only one internal redeployment of the workforce is concerned ". The move to Dresden could be prevented. As of mid-1944, the manufactory had but the work to share with Radio H. Mende & Co.. The radio manufacturer founded in 1923 with headquarters in Dresden in 1936 already converted its production completely on Army needs. From Mende was in the Federal Republic of Northern Mende. In the GDR, the successor operation was renamed later as VEB Funkwerk Dresden.

In the records of the factory tanks appeared one last time after the war ended in May 1945 as a participant in a meeting on. It was about the continuation of the factory during the Soviet occupation. The new line fitted to the new time. Herbert Neuhaus, old Social Democrat, who had since been classified as unfit for war survived the war as a porcelain painter, was appointed as the new operator.

In a letter of 8 May 1946 the manufactory to the labor office Meissen (at the urgent request of the Russian city of headquarters) is the speech, including six senior executives and nine division champions of 141 layoffs former fascists. Panzers release dated 18 May 1945. Shortly thereafter, he was arrested with other "Nazi collaborators". After a brief internment in the Albrecht Castle and in prison in Bautzen he died as a result of torture during a rail shipment to the United Strehlitz (now Poland).

The aim of the trip was the Russian prison camp Tost. Of the nearly 5000 prisoners of this camp of the Russian secret service NKVD have survived, according to estimates, only about two-thirds. Another rarely-told story.