"This is the most rare of all the early skulls!"

[RD Rygaard]

its time someone put the brakes on with the runaway stories & prices of these flimsy pieces of metal though I do love them so!). Its just getting ridiculous! I forsee a huge train wreck around the bend!

[Rick C]

I wonder, exactly, what might this community perceive the differences are between Mr. Bill Shea and, for instance, Mr. Norbert Graetz?

Both involved themselves in supporting the interests of the collecting community for Third Reich militaria. Both have been known to have offered and sold pieces which were, at best, questionable and, fakes. Indeed, both, according to many, ‘knowingly’ offered fakes hoping their reputation (as it were) was enough to get away with it. Both offered refunds (in Norberts case while he was still operating) in the event the client was displeased with his or her hands-on evaluation of the purchased product. Yet, Graetz is vilified here on the WAF while most mainstream collectors and the “community” in general still consider Shea as one of the premier dealers.

Why, I wonder, does Mr. Shea get ‘a pass’ on his activities while another dealer (pick a name) gets eviscerated when the only difference I see is that Mr. Shea remains in business, quietly handing out refunds to dissatisfied clients, while Mr. Graetz folded his tent and went into retirement/exile?

Just wondering...

[John T]

I remember when this lot walked into Union earlier this year. The man and woman (and I think another woman) came in, and I believe it was the father of one of them who brought back the stuff. I saw the items after Bill did the deal that day and the skull was in the lot, there were some buckles, cap insignia, tabs, cuff-bands, a ton of stuff, some common stuff too. To me it seemed like a Dachau mix and then other stuff picked up in Germany. Bill paid a lot for everything as I do recall the guy shopped it around to another dealer first who did not have the money and he told me what the asking price was and it was some large amount, I forget how much but the guy did his homework. I think the skull could very well be something made by a POW that was then taken away from him by the vet.

[panzer wittman]

"Expensive but missing from most collections"

I think most people would be glad about that!

[Bill Shea]

Clarification and apology

S-550b Early Skull for SS Visor Cap
This was listed as a direct Veteran family purchase! This was witnessed by several dealers and attendees at the July 2013 <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Union</st1:City> <st1:State w:st="on">NJ</st1:State></st1lace> show as it was part of a very nice lot of SS cloth and metal insignia. The Veteran's daughter and son-in-law went from dealer to dealer and eventually accepted my offer.This is cast in heavy metal with a nickel/silver finish that remains fully intact. I had never seen anything like it and presumed that it was simply an early cast example and used and prior to full production of the second type skull. There is little to no visible wear to the details, which remain very crisp. I didn't see any markings on the back. The prongs are both intact and firmly secured to the skull. Several of my friends and colleagues have just pointed out that there were threads on the Wehrmacht Awards Forum and the War Relics Forum. Having discussed this with a few very advanced collectors and fellow dealers, I now realize I was dupped as this piece is obviously not correct. Still, as it was part of a grouping of over 100 other original pieces, perhaps the veteran had this cast from an original and brought it home. Maybe it was made by a POW. We all know that, even with veterans, an occasional piece will get mixed in. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>
The bottom line is I apologize for having incorrectly described and valued this piece. I will of course remove it from the site as soon as possible. I did notice that members copied the listing. Now others can observe and learn that even when you are dealing directly with a veteran or his family, it isn't a carte-blanche guarantee of originality. By the way the piece has been removed from the market and I'll keep it as a reminder. I sincerely appreciate the vast majority of collectors who support me.
I average less than 1% returns on the 1,000's of items I sell each year. These are handled in a profesional and courteous manner. I'll tip my hat to any dealer or collector who can match or top that percentage.
Respectfully,
Bill Shea of The Ruptured Duck
<o></o>
</ZZZBODY>

[Rick C]

[QUOTE=Bill Shea;6153164][U]I now realize I was dupped as this piece is obviously not correct.[/SIZE]

Not being a big collector of SS stuff I would ask you guys who really know this stuff if they can tell me here, in this thread, how often they’ve seen totenkopf cap insignia that was “cast” like this one? I ask because when Bill says he was “duped” I try to put together the number of years he’s been at this collecting racket along side the definition of ‘Dupe’ and find it incongruous that anyone could not say this present TK was a one look fake even for an SS challenged neophyte such as myself.

Perhaps I’m misinformed but I didn’t think there were any “original” cast TKs resembling the present piece and somehow, a veteran of this collecting community taking a ‘mea culpa’ of I was bamboozled, hoodwinked, misled and hornswaggled by this ‘cast’ skull that, at first blush, seemed to me to be a fine original. seems almost as credulous as someone promising “If you like your Doctor, you can keep your Doctor.”

So please, can anyone show us a cast original visor TK such as (or is even close) to the example that snookerd Bill because pursuant to the intent of this forum, I'm just trying to 'learn'.

[Jimmy]

Bill Shea

I for one stand in support of Bill Shea. I have NEVER bought from him. I've seen his tables at the big MAX show in Pittsburg against the back wall.
Here is an observation. There was a very large collector in Dallas who past away a few years ago. He left instructions with his daughter to sell his vast collection to Bill Shea and only Bill Shea, I offered $100,000.00 for it and she said no. This has to speak volumes about the trust in Mr Shea that David had.
I hope I haven't offended the nay sayers. But just my two cents worth.
I like to be positive , I even speak to the MAJOR when I see him around.

[PaulMann]

cast tk

This piece looks looks like it was cast from a ground dug example.

cheers,
Pauli

[Ian Hulley]

It looks like a very poor casting off the most common fake Overhoff skull.

Ian

[bastogne]

Shea

Members
I met Bill around 1993 and made my 1st serious buy as a young collector .
(some luftwaffe badges that I have to this day.)
I haven't seen him since then but I have bought and sold some high dollar items to him and NEVER had any issue at all.
I think it a shame the way some people have slammed him for an error w/ one item
(gee, you think the guy is human ? )
I think a visit to his site ,the thousands of customers he has and the years he has in the hobby speak for itself

Yes , there are alot of unscrupulous dealers out there .
Shea is not one of them .

D.Q.

[Ian Hulley]

I think it a shame the way some people have slammed him for an error w/ one item

The skull is an immediately obvious, entry level fake, any one dealing with SS militaria should spot it at a single glance.

Ian

[Rick C]

Had ‘anyone’ tried to sell this skull on Estand - anyone - they would’ve been eviscerated. Indeed, were they to respond with “I got it from a vet” as some fall back position, they would’ve been the laughingstock of this or any other forum.

It’s one thing for a collector to pick something up that’s, perhaps, not quite right if they believe further research would result in a righteous acquisition but it’s then incumbent on that individual to carry out said research via other professionals or venues such as this. But to put it out there for sale to trusting collectors who come to you because you have a ‘big name’ and place a bend-over-the-desk price on it without carrying out the due diligence expected of any seller, let alone one of the ‘big guns’ of the militaria community, is, in my humble opinion, is beyond arrogant.

I see other dealers come on here asking for thoughts and opinions on something that may be rather rare or questionable but, in this case I believe there may have been the thought that having a ‘name’ provides a certain amount of ‘immunity’ from questioning or scorn. Well, perhaps not. If something as overtly dubious as this slides right through a cursory evaluation for authenticity then I would certainly have little faith in anything else that was professed to be period that might be offered by such a lax vetting process.

[John Pic]

The man came on here and explained the mishap that's enough. That's all we can ask for . Once you realize the extent of faking in this hobby you have to just roll with the flubs and move on.

[Rick C]

As John mentioned, the “mishap” has been explained and most (I’m sure) agree we should just move on. Everyone agrees that research, in this hobby, is the only thing between a collector and his wallet (or abject embarrassment) and while Ian related “The skull is an immediately obvious, entry level fake, any one dealing with SS militaria should spot it at a single glance”, I’m sure it was an oversight and, frankly, researching, is just impractical for some.

Recognizing my own limitations, I do try to put the effort in nine out of ten times and it’s paid off for me thanks to the help from members here. Reminiscing on the subject of ‘research’ I reflect upon another thread back in October 2008 (http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...matic+insignia) which saved me from getting taken to the cleaners as well as the aforementioned “abject embarrassment”. The insignia, in question, was unique and, as the thread progressed, a rather amusing story took shape thanks to Julian, a member here. Needless to say I never went through with the transaction (again, thanks to Julian and the due diligence of “research”) but, shortly after the thread in question was initiated the very insignia offered to me showed up for sale at Empire. Warned of, or embarrassed by the thread, Empire’s owners quickly took down the offering. A short time later some insignia showed up here (http://www.therupturedduck.com/WebPages/Cloth/c223.htm) bearing an uncanny and striking resemblance to that which I almost took the gas pipe on. As P.T. Barnum once said “There’s an ass for every seat.” and I guess that’s true.

Anyway, I agree with John. It's time to move on as clearly, nothing's to be gained here.

Best of luck to all, RC