Mint ss camo smock

[Michael Everett]

No

David,

That was clearly not my intent!

MIKE

[pete]

.

Mike PM me, I am interested if you are not.

Thanks,

Pete

[Stossgruppe3]

David,

That was clearly not my intent!

MIKE

I know Mike ..... I could see that.
It was just a general comment I still remember the first one
Regards
David

[Palmenmuster]

I am one of the believers, I will keep mine.
Tom

[90th Light]

The following quote say it all really,

Chris

Very telling! I can not believe that it took us 10 years to decide to to do a post like this one. I realize that some side by side photos have been done before, but not in a while and not like this one. I know that in Beaver's book alone several Type 2 smocks are show that are much more pink in the "red" shades than these "pink" smocks.

I agree with Chris in that the term as been used to slam these smocks and is used in most every post by some in the most childish way.

I agree with Fritz that just because the camo is effective (and this version is as Chris has shown) does not make it original. Again, the reason this point was brought up is that so many have claimed the smocks are NOT original because the colors are not effective. When the term "original dyes" is used......that implies that these dyes are not wartime (rather than simply just like the dyes used in the German made smocks).....on what basis can anyone say that these dyes are not wartime?

Back around 2003-2004 and even in a thread on these that was started earlier......a very advanced SS camo collector posted a series of photos that showed the improvised pattern used in the pink smocks to extend the pattern due to the larger rollers used (the rest of the pattern is the same in both these and the German oakleaf B patterns), this comparison was his "proof" that these pink smocks could not be wartime. NOW we know that the Norwegian camo was done the same way for the same reason....we did not know that then....at least on this forum and no one mentioned it. That is one reason that the information from Tom is so important.

I hope that we are past the days of collectors sticking their heads in black trash bags at shows to blacklight items and licking flatwire insignia to see if it is period or not........these were the methods of "experts" back in the mid 80s and earlier......essentially the same school as the thinking used back then to condem these smocks....and still used today.

We all know that a faker could and would have made a type 1 smock (and a version without the loops) in 1/2 of the time that it would take them per smock to have made these. They would not have had to have found the 2000 or so buttons that these required, again no fooling with 14 loop sets per smock (42 loops per smock and 42 additional sewing operations just to attach them, machine sewn eyelets instead of hand sewn........and using only 2/3 of the fabric per smock as these required...... and selling them at least 30% higher price than these......not to mention that this oakleaf B is a very complex pattern to copy, more so than even QL A and both patterns were used in this model during the war.

Regardless, the stamps are a fact and they are a fact that was not known 33 years ago when these showed up. The stamps in these smocks back then (and removal of the same) hurt the selling value of these then and they also served as a basis to suspect them as being some kind of prop......because NO ONE understood the stamps back then......

Thanks to Leroy for posting the photos of the smock that just sold. I do not know what is up with the dyed or bleached greenish mottled pocket bags or if it is just a photo effect....but this I have never seen in the ones as they came in. I do agree with NZMark that this one is (otherwise) a real "pink' smock and the details are well shown in these photos.

Since none of us posting in favor of these smocks know anything about SS camo......as stated by some, perhaps those who do can tell us all about the Norwegian SS wartime camo that used the larger rollers, made up repeat extension, non-standard fabric and narrow width bolts? Actually I'm surprised that this variant did not come to our attention before Tom raised it as the experts must have known about this for decades.

[90th Light]

This one is worth a read too

Chris

Sometimes things border on unsanity when attempting a discusssion. I wonder if any other posts on this thread have been read. For the life of me I can not understand one blow against these being orignal due to lack of drawstrings.....If factory installed drawstrings were the criteria for originality there would be maybe 12 SS smocks in the world that would be 100% orignal. I wish that someone could enlighten me on this as an "issue"?

The odd mis-match fabric non-issue is more than accounted for and it would be odd if these had it as they clearly were not made by one of the factories or the factory that made them for years and had old material around.......this fabric was printed to make these smocks.....NOT shipped somewhere that was already makeing them and had been makeing them.....how simple can it be? How many zelts have you seen out of hbt? Some SS smocks were made of hbt....where are the hbt zelts?

As far as I can tell EVERY concern that was posted by Fritz points to these smocks being made up as a spearate contract and jobber and location (maybe or maybe not within Germany) printing the fabric and making the smock.....nothing more and nothing less.

It is interesting that there has not been one serious contribution regarding the stamps. The N&B origin has been de-bunked years ago.....there is not one shred of evidence......it flat did not happen.

These are not late war...they would date to late 42-mid 43.....the period where the W-SS doubled in size by the way....and all of the references from Mollo to Beaver cite as the mad scamble for material and unforms to fit out about 8 divisions and to re-fit the other 8 decimated in Russia.


I do agree on one thing and that is someone is witholding information....but it is not about these being fake, but the opposite direction.

There is no need for me to write this again as I have written it at least 6 times since 2004 and it has never been even commented on...so probably never read......but even without the need I ask people to consider why would these smocks have been made not as a copy an acdepted orginal nor even attempt it....which they do not.....but rather made soley to stand on their own as a robust functional smock?

These smocks made as this variation of a type I M 42 had 30 foliage loops per smock fabricated and then sewn on in 10 sets per smock with 5 extra center passes ...when most orginals ommitted these center loop stitches. No big deal when one a faking a dozen or two dozen items......but hundreds of these turned up.

It is a waste to go on. Until the stamps are accounted for there is nothing more to say as it is all in the posts that have been made on these over the years...close to 10 now on this forum alone......

[90th Light]

Its those "Pink Smocks" again

but this quote sums it up nicely,

Chris

Meanwhile, the estand example has already sold...
And still - these basic questions I asked way back on page three (post #37) have still not been answered...
1 - IF these are reproductions, made to fool and confuse collectors (as they have for nearly thirty years) so well made, so well copied with such a magnificent pattern etc etc - where are the new generation fakes that rectified the failings of this one? (None have flooded the market, have they?)
2 - Why has only a limited number appeared on the market?
3 - Why go so far with the accuracy and screw up the colour match to known examples? (Let's face it - whoever made these one's was a stickler for detail).
4 - Who made these reproductions - and where did they disappear to, because if you are on to a good thing, why give up?
Interesting discussion when emotions are kept in restraint.
Mark
New Zealand

[scotty1418]

Nothing much to add - but curious if anyone's seen legitimate origins for one of these? AKA vet bringback collections, etc?

Are they mostly possessed by a certain age of collector?

[Fritz]

These smocks are not original IMHO.

[pete]

.

Well Scotty, they dont match 1:1 an accepted smock if that's what you are looking for, but they do scream production outside the normal facilities with "inferior materials" and a whole lot more, if you are looking and listening with an open mind and without ego. But the main thing was we recently found a Film studio stamp and two other Military stamps in the pocket of one smock in which these markings survived and were not cut out. In the 70s 80s, these markings were not something good but something bad as no one understood them. Then recently also two of the 3 stamps, a triangle and circle, in a dot 44 pair or trousers and the best is the unquestionable smock, of an accepted pattern currently on Bill sheas site. The markings are quite visible on this one, and, there is info from 1947 from people at the film studio who remember these. There's eons of posts but safe to say there are a large number of us, and some behind the scenes who also now accept these, and there are the 1:1 people, to each their own. Since we located the recent stamps there has been increased behind the scenes activity on these, despite the negative comments. Remember, we have not seen everything that was ever made from WW2 yet and who would have believed a HBT smock in dot 44 if it surfaced now? Like i said, there is a whole other thread. I will gladly buy one of these when i get the chance, i feel because it adds up enough for me and i can look at history from the THEN and not the NOW.

Pete

[Fritz]

These are indeed not 1:1, in fact they show (too) many significant differences to known originals. It seems that these differences are no concern to many, fine, to me they are.

That said, originals are not 1:1 either, yet they share certain features that these smocks here are lacking.

It is by no means pedantic to expect those certain features in original smocks, my scepticism is cartainly based on more than just a mere 1:1 comparison.

[Massimo F.]

...i would not buy it for any price but i saw them sold for 350 euro, probably the one of above collector.

[Panzerknacker12]

I have tried on a few original smocks, all are large and roomy, and from what ive seen, the same general size.

Every one of these pink smocks ive tried on are small by comparison. Ive seen these since the early 80's, all exactly the same...made for a movie from all the old timers I talked to "back in the day". One dealer was offered 50 at a time.

Oh well, this goes on decade after decade. Its real if you think its real I guess ( but its not).

[blamers]

Prints..

Prints looks de same as original ., but the prints are not. Different details. Looks like bad copy.

The following quote say it all really,

Chris

[Spanish Freiwillige]

this is a very tricky subject...I dont know why I belive that maybe these smocks could have been made post war by some european country for their army.....later maybe used in movie props.

Still we do know that there are some undocumanted patterns that show in period photos....but I would guess that construction and materials would be the same and could only vary if they were made under contract in another country.

just my two cents, some european countries used SS camo after the war, modified war tiem garments...maybe had the machines, so maybe printed their own version of camo with the same method with variances....