"Barnfinds" vs. "Dealer's Update's"

[Fred Fokkelman]

Hi John, I don't either think that Waffen-SS soldiers surrendered en masse to the Russians with their insignia on. The price they had to pay for that was very severe. But, I have seen a lot of photo's and movies were Waffen-SS soldiers surrendered with pride with everything on it... only they did it to the Western Allies. Those pictures I have only seen so far.
But, I have seen pictures of SS soldiers who were caught by the Russians before they could strip anything. These uniforms might have been taken by the Russians as a souvenir.
I therefore think that most mint tunics come from the West....
The WH outnumbered the Waffen-SS totally and therefore a genuine SS tunic is more rare than a WH one... that's obvious. Look at the numbers...
The only question remains: how many real SS tunics are still in existence today?

[InfanterieSammler]

Fred, There are stories of W-SS units marching proudly into captivity wearing their uniforms, but this was as you said in the West. Did the GI's take some of these uniforms, caps, medals, etc. as souvenir's - of course that is what GI's did best. After that the W-SS soldiers would have their uniforms completely stripped of their insignia and badges and were then separated from the rest of the soldiers...As for the few W-SS that surrendered in the East, as most had retreated to the West and the majority of those that remained refused to be taken alive, I doubt very much that any Russian soldier wanted a 'souvenir' SS tunic to bring home.
My whole point here was to simply point out a pattern that runs totally contrary to what is can be reasonably expected. History has dictated what we can expect with regards to finding original and untouched W-SS uniforms, and that is they are to be 'rarer than hens teeth'. If there any collectors who disagree with me and think that a dealer can offer such a selection of 'untouched' W-SS uniforms month after month, than I wish them the best of luck and advise them to play the lottery too, because they can win there month after month! John

[TWP]

Hi John Donovan, I would like to ask you if you have ever bought or seen first hand an ss tunic etc from Peter V L? I am just asking out of curioisity as I stumbled on this thread. Thanks.

[TMurray]

I dont follow...is there an insinuation that Peter v L's gear isnt right?

[Gary Cain]

Interestingly enough there is a German Hunting Super Store called Franconia Jagd and they have a guy on staff who go's out to the various sites when bunkers are found etc. He either buys up the stuff or makes sure it is destroyed in a safe way. So the stuff does show up from time to time but it is certainly not common. There was a huge influx when the wall came down but that has ended for the most part, now it's Czech fakes and that Polish broad! A good friend of mine told me how back when he was a kid they would buy those german helmets and take them out to the range and shoot them!, But not just any old helmets, they would take those funny looking ones that didnt have the skirt around the bottom...."they didn't look like a german helmet"

Gary

When I was stationed in Germany in the early to mid 90's some WWI and WWII military stuff started showing up from the east block.

Also, when we closed the US base at Nurenburg, some GI found german helmets and stuff locked away, forgotton in one of the buildings. Needless to say, the stuff was pretty rough.

Some times you can find stuff in an attic/barn.

Steve

[InfanterieSammler]

SSTunics

TWP, I have not purchased an SS tunic from Peter, I know better, though I do know people who have. This thread isn't just about Peter either. That said, I do have first-hand experience with the SS tunics and caps that are being assembled from raw components i.e. cut-down overcoats, period buttons, period thread, and original insignia (sometimes fake too).
These tunics are very, very good, but in the end they are still not original. The problem with using stripped, but original SS tunics, or stripped Heer tunics is that it is much easier to detect replaced insignia, evidence of litzen/breast eagle etc. Now if you build a tunic from scratch out of cut down overcoats (i.e. period wool) and use period thread and original insignia, most people would never know the difference. There are no stitch holes from previous insignia, evidence of Heer use, etc.
Collecting uniforms is a three part equation when it comes to originality. One needs to be an become an expert in three things at once. First is the tunic itself, two is the insignia, and three is whether the insignia is original to the tunic. This last one is the hardest of all and is something next-to-impossible to do from looking at photo's. IMO, most collector's in their zeal to own an SS tunic overlook one of the above parts...John

[nutmeg]

Fritz,
Anything west of the Elbe in May '45 became the 'western' front', but I think you got the idea that these troops were surrendering to the Ami's and Tommies, not the Russkies - thanks reminding me about Viking, don't know how I forgot them...I definitely agree with you that the Russians took everything they could out of Germany, but there was a conscious effort to denazify stuff, where when Allied veterans brought stuff back, the swastika was made the item a neat souvenir. Besides, I don't think you would ever catch Ivan wearing an SS tunic with all it's insignia, not unless he wanted to be shot. Best, John

A friend of mine who was in Berlin very soon after the Russians took the city took me they were taking anything and everything. This included filling boxcars bound for Russia with toilets they had ripped out of buildings. He said you could get anything you wanted from the Russian soldiers for cigarettes.

[nutmeg]

Collecting uniforms is a three part equation when it comes to originality. One needs to be an become an expert in three things at once. First is the tunic itself, two is the insignia, and three is whether the insignia is original to the tunic. This last one is the hardest of all and is something next-to-impossible to do from looking at photo's. IMO, most collector's in their zeal to own an SS tunic overlook one of the above parts...John[/QUOTE]
This truly sums it up. Although I believe that in many cases it is impossible to determine authenticity when dealing with a real tunic with real insignia added by someone who really knows what they are doing.

[InfanterieSammler]

Nutmeg, We definitely agree on the three part thing. However, I'm sorry but I fail to see the connection between W-SS tunics and toliet seats. We've already established that the Russians took 'everything and anything' back at the end of the war, but we've also established that most of the W-SS surrendered in the West - so how many W-SS men surrendered to the Russians vs. the Allies, the answer is very few.
Secondly, there was a different mindset, the stuggle in the East was an ideological conflict and the Russians wanted to destroy everything that Nazi Germany stood. Russian soldiers despised the Swastika and all it represented!. The typical Russian soldier was not interested in bringing home a W-SS tunic, he wanted more practical items i.e. silverware, watches, clocks, etc. For the GI's in the West the war was something different, especially for the Americans who had not suffered invasion. The GI's went to all ends to find souvenirs to bring home, the more Nazi the better. American GI's wanted big flags with swastika's, Lugers, and Nazi helmets - that is a major difference that people fail to understand. This is why we have seen more SS items come out of the US and England over the last 60yrs...John

[TMurray]

the Russians even took their ideological 'revenge' so far as to systematically rape German women in Berlin... I cant see them wanting to take home SS tunics but agree that toilet seats serve a much more functional purpose and can understand why they filled box cars full of them...although...if this was the case, why havent we seen these toilet seats on the market since the fall of the Wall???

[Bill D.]

The real question is....

What the hell are all of us doing up at 2 a.m. in the morning ?

[münster]

it all depends on which toilets you refer too! I have some modern ones ive picked up and redone in period style. I have seen many RZM and stampings faked with the classic ceramic bake on usually coming from the east. The "salty" originals that were loaded into soviet box cars are few and to far between! I tend to stick to the safe end of this collecting area which is urinals. For example: I picked up a definite original urinal the other day for 500..and it even had mint issued urinal cakes included, try finding a mint toilet with original stamped link chAIN OR IF AT ALL, rzm issued toilet paper. As long as the fakers further develop techniques in ceramic stamping, we will find our hobby more difficult. Here is a copy of a Barnfind urinal I picked up at the Stuutgart show,,it had the same old story,,"Vet bring back", "those stains,,why yes they are blood satins!" so on so forth,,but yet a< good period example!

http://www.laymusic.org/pictures/urinal.jpg

[derspiess63]

In two years there will be even more minty ss tunics. The dealers will have 10 tunics per month instead of 5. This will be explained as "russians took everything with them, and there is incredible collections that none of you will ever be priviledged to see."

Amen to that J,and I'd add the odd,strange-looking, not-at-all-original, DAK cap to those 454545 hyper-ultra-mega rare SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division "Maria Theresia" !
Manuel

[Theodor]

But lets have a look "from inside" of the problem!!! A friend is a genius hacker and managed somehow to enter one Ebay account and take a screenshot from it Here is the screenshot, with the permission of my friend

[Fritz]

John,

we are repeating ourselfs so this is indeed getting old so old....

Ok, Peter is making all of his tunics from mint great coats that actually also disappeard on may 8. But in some magical way he is able to get these...may the force be with him.

We totaly ignore the fact that a great coat is totaly different in construction and that the colours vary. Perhaps you could make a Heer Stug wrapper or a M44 blouse but everything else will be a tough challenge I think. Except if you'd allow additional seems or traces of former seams.

All Heer soldiers walked proud and with a smile on their faces into russian (allied include the russians) captivity. After four years of war against Ivan they knew how lovely he is and that it will be fun in his camps called gulag.
-40°C conditions, 18 hour shifts 365 days a year for ten years. This is going to be some REAL fun that they all couldn't await to see.

In four years of war against russia there was not one ss soldier who surrendered to the red army. They all waited to surrender to their US mates.

The surrendering SS soldier had plenty of time to remove the insigina eat it up and wash the tunic 20 times so all the traces of the sleeve eagle were gone. Then many of them have cut their left arm off up to the shoulder because Ivan was looking for traces of the "fashy tatoo".

To just throw that bloody tunic/ cap / beltbuckle away is much more dificult.

Perhaps they also started to grind the beltbuckle before they went out of the foxhole with their hands up. Many russian soldiers reported that the ss troops asked for 2 more hours when the russians wanted them to surrender because they wanted to prepaire themselfs for Ivan. Ivan generously allowed that of course .


Peter must be a very good friend of yours . All I say for all the time is that I believe that Peter could have contacts to the east and that I believe that things are still there. But if he has contacts and what contacts these are you better ask him yourself .

As for Heer tunics: If he would have ten heer tunics in his update too. Would you say oh, ah, he now has heer tunics in offer and so the offer must be good. No you wouldn't you would just say: Heer tunics too? that must be fake everything is fake!!

As for the russians : EVERYTHING


Hope this wasn't too blunt but it is really getting old since we both won't move from our oppinions.

Cheers

Fritz