SS Plane Tree #4 Cap

[eternal joker]

...very interesting

[90th Light]

This isn't about caps anymore it's anou your weak attempt at establishing yourself as a Cammo expert by swinging a baseball bat into my head.

You posted your patches and odd wool arm.
I asked to see your smocks

Pretty simple

Everyone who played seriously in SS Cammo knows me and what I bring to the table.
You ?
That's another matter.

Owen,

this is a thread about SS Cammo caps. How many times do I have to say that.

It is not about;
-smocks, --baseball bats, -heads, -beer -wine bottles, -fridges, - Boxing Day paper, -drinking or any other side-tracked subject you have chosen at random to divert it on to

It is about SS cammo caps. One of the rules of WAF is to stay on the topic of the thread

I have added images of some of my veteran brought back SS camo caps along with other veteran brought back items from the SS unit they probably came from.
Now we would like to see more of your caps

Nobody is challenging you for your "Cammo expert" status in the world. That is all your own doing, you are safe there and welcome to it.

We would like to see more of your SS cammo caps. After all you chime in on every thread saying how fake most caps are is or that is an obvious fake. Lets now see some of these great examples all this wisdom and knowledge is based upon.

So please stop stalling by trying to indulge in feeble insults. Many reading this are not interested or have heard it all before.
What those reading want to see is some of these benchmark caps all those years of handling and networking have produced in your collection.

You have seen some of mine lets now see some more of yours

It is that simple or to use your words, "Pretty simple"

Chris

[Segeltuchtasche]

Cracking good entertainment kids...
Owen, looks like it is up to you now. Everyone here wants to finally see something to back up your claims as they seem to be long on talk and short on...(evidence)... This thread is not about smocks; its about caps. I know, I started it. So let's see some of yours! We'd all really appreciate it, so don't disappoint us...
"Pretty simple"!? Yes, it is indeed for all of us here at "the table" we've had the appetizers, and are now hungry for the potential main course... Stop throwing dust and let's have some real fun in the sand box

Thanks for your great contributions Chris! Keep up the good work! Cheers

[RD Rygaard]

Chris:

VERY IMPRESSIVE! The Prinz Eugen cutoffs are really awesome. Thanks for sharing! Rich

[NickG]

Amazing material Chris. Mindblowing!!!

[kammo man]

You are good for a good laugh Owen,

What we call out here "a bit of a Dagg" as in sheep dag. I have attached an image to show you the affection and respect we attach to the "Dagg" status. It is a bit of a national icon.

I can not believe you are still trying to work out the "Pink Smocks" Given all those networks and learning.

Thus in the other image, I have included another SS cammo cap which might also be beyond the realm/ base of many networks and learning. Just like the "Pink Smocks"

"They never did that, yes they did"

Chris

Please explain the SS cap in this post

[90th Light]

Please explain the SS cap in this post

I already have Owen,

but just in case you missed it or are having trouble comprehending;

The cap in post number 50 is an image from the award of the EK2 to a member of 12th SS Division. He is most likely wearing a cap made from Italian camo as shown by other members of this SS division in the images I added in post numbers 52, 63 and 64.

For some unexplainable reason, you brought "Pink Smocks" into a thread about SS camo caps. One can only speculate why such as a lack of understanding or failed put down on your part.

Now can we please see some more of your 101% original SS camo caps that you keep claiming to have handled. Most collectors reading this would like to see such caps in the interests of increasing their understanding,

Chris

[kammo man]

We will have to agree to disagree on a few things.
I know I will never win an argument with you because you always use the same old line that a vet handed you any disputed item.
It seems to be your nuclear option for not being wrong.

I enjoyed your ad hominem comparing me to a kiwi redneck.....
Very insulting but fun and it shows your pretty sad individual.
But you are cute.

What worries me is there are a lot of new collectors out there reading this forum who are trying to learn......and when bad items are posted as good and defended by people who talk a good game it only hurts them.
I have only seen fake caps and helmet covers made from pink cloth.....a smock I remind you that you claimed you got from a veteran.
Again you defend something that Hritz was told by Floch is good because a mouse chewed a bale of them.
To use a pink as a bench mark to study as your standard then one will be an easy mark and that's dangerous.

You know my arguments against this fabric well enough it's worth hashing it out again.
No issue caps
No issue helmet covers with war time clips
No zelts
No tailor made items
SS camouflage is treated with persistol including caps but pink is not.
Uuuuuum then mid 1980s and pinks including caps that were so bad.
Please tell me a vet give you a pink please.

Why oh why I am bothering with all this ?

To understand original SS camouflage one has to understand the SS Va system.
The SS did not farm out work to firms making clothing for the wh.
They did not need to as they had free labour so a cap with a WH makers mark is an absurdly.
KZ caps have a sewing technique all of there own and if you see enough you can call one in a simple
Yes or no like I can in 5 seconds.

SS Cammo like I stated is all treated with waterproofing as I stated above.
This becomes clear when looking at hundreds of pieces in various collections.
When a cap is made from new and washed or used a cap and sewing behave in a certain way.
When a cut up used zelt is made into a cap it behaves differently.
Pink is the only non treated ss cloth item FYI .

Some on this board believe an SS camp made cap can be authenticated by looking and compairing it to a picture in a book.
No and no .... Just no.
The cut , pattern , fabric and stitch can all be right but it can still be wrong.
Sadly it's a dark art to authenticate these things.
It just takes time with some real ones and it clicks into place.

There are plenty of bad zelt made caps floating around but priced as wartime caps and this is nothing but theft.

If a bad cap is called good some poor bugger is out 5 plus k and that.
There is a very dirty tricks aspect to all this.
New collectors are steered towards crap and that takes their money out of the game.
Seen it at shows plenty from old salts dumpin crap at shows like SoS.
They know what's right from wrong.
It's a great sport.
A vicious blood sport.

Calling me to post my collection just because you posted a questionable cut sleeve and some loose patches is cute.

I have forwarded some pics to another member and he will post in his own time so you can Chill ax and drink more fosters

Owen

[kammo man]

The cap is not Italian pattern

[90th Light]

You are getting rattled Owen,

"have a Snickers bro, you are mean when your hungry"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uiRvU6hcic

Hey just for the record, that "kiwi redneck" as you call him John Clarke alias "Fred Dagg" is in the TV/ movie business just like you. You probably have more in common than you give it credit for. Trying to get people to watch a weekly series, spend money on questionable movies or make them laugh.

But seeing as you have such a hang up with the Pink Smocks" and keep bringing them into a thread about SS cammo caps. Could you please at least quote what I said accurately. My claim was to have meet someone out here who remember the Pink Smock from the end of WW2. I never said I got a Pink Smock from him. Thats your failing comprehension again Owen.

Anyway, they are documented Kiwis so here is a cut and paste from the Pink Smock thread for all to read about it;

please keep in mind that for the Estonians, the war did not end in May 1945. They were still fighting well into the 1950's. Some had to get out and could not stay in Europe for a range of reasons. Australia and New Zealand represented a new beginning in more ways than one. No one gives a stuff if you are a communist or a fascist out here. Everyone gets a "fair go" and immigrated here from some where for god knows why.

If you want to know more about such "fighters" who came to live out here "down-under" then have a read of the book shown below ( "Strawberries with the Fuhrer: A Journey from the Third Reich to New Zealand" by Helga Tiscenko ) with the image of the SS general in his Reichswehr uniform. This is the Reichswehr officer who could have shot Hitler during the Munich Putsch of 1923. Instead he joined him and became a general in the Waffen SS.

I worked with Helga for over 5 years. What she told me was amazing. Have a look at this video clip to see what I mean http://vimeo.com/8571249

But what her husband Nick told me was even more interesting. He was an Imperial Russian by birth. He fought with the Estonians. He knew the Pink Smock as Estonian SS. He was a surveyor/ engineer by profession. A man who never missed any details in anything he was involved in. Proper recognition of such cammo could have meant life or death for him in those times.

Nick is only one of the Estonian, Latvian or Lithuanian fighters/ SS who I have met and interviewed about the war or what uniforms/ lack of they wore,

Chris

As I suspected but confirmed by this comment,

Calling me to post my collection just because you posted a questionable cut sleeve and some loose patches is cute.

I have forwarded some pics to another member and he will post in his own time so you can Chill ax and drink more fosters

Owen

No caps to post Owen ???
Oh well I look forward to one of the advanced guys bailing you out.

At the end of the day, what those reading this want to see is nice original SS cammo caps so we can all extend our knowledge, enjoyment and understanding,

Chris

p.s. the image is of Helga's book. It is worth a read for sure.

and "Fosters" is an Australian beer, we accept no responsibility for that here and no self-respecting Kiwi would drink it.

[Marflower]

A really interesting thread. It is a pity that the communications have become somewhat acrimonious. However, for us with less knowledge of the subject, we can glean some useful information.
Namely that the hardest fakes to spot are going to be made of original material. Obvious perhaps, but we have to look at the age blending of the stitching into the material as a way of determining its authenticity. From the original photos posted you begin to get an idea of this.
Furthermore, the caps follow a standard construction technique. In this case, unless you have had a detailed study of an original, you will be none the wiser. That is why Owen is able to spot original and fake so easily. Not sure how the rest of us are going to catch on, unless someone puts up an idiot's guide to their construction.
I am not sure if the 3 caps shown later are original or fake. Can anyone clear that up, please?
Then we jump somewhat to the 'Pink' smocks. I didn't know that the other camouflage materials were waterproof treated with Persistol and the Pink material not. I do know that the Pink is a less dense material and that you can see a bit of light through it, as opposed to the other materials.
Also the SSVA had its own system of procurement and did not need to source elsewhere. However, it is not impossible, that in the later stages of the War, Waffen SS troups in areas that were cut off from the rest, could have turned to a local supplier. Not saying anymore.
So, not enough information to risk 3 - 5 k $, but this is a good start.
Keep up the good work
Regards
John

[kammo man]

Chris
The pink does not fit into the KZ made industry as does wh made caps.
Pretty simple
Owen

[brooksbz]

Good posts Kammo Man on KZ cammo. Sometime I woulld like to discuss KZ wool sewing.

[kammo man]

To understand all this its essential to understand KZ work and SS Cammo printing.
Bottom line.
Understanding patterns also helps !
Anyone send me an email to
Owen@kammo-man and I can send pics to post as I can't
Thanks
O

[Larry F.]

Posting the below caps on behalf of Owen as he does not have WAF posting rights. This is the only pic I have from him of his camo cap collection.