Allach - expensive humped up piece on specialized dealer site!

[Steve T]

Quick porcelain question:

If you had a perfectly restored piece, with a finely airbrushed resin glaze, that you couldn't tell from a picture, or even in the hand; would these glazes fluoresce under a UV light or would you have to test a tiny area with a fine needle to see if it scratched to determine whether its a resin?

[Thorsten B.]

That is dependent on the skills of the restorer and of the quality of the material he is working with.

Luckily enough in this case it is without any doubt clear that the piece has been "upgraded" with a paint job, some here even call it "a mistake".

[pylon1357]

I have been following this topic in hopes of learning more about this beautiful art.

I am a little concerned with the above statement " in this case it is without a doubt clear that the piece has been 'upgraded' with a paint job'

I have looked at the photo of the offering and I can not tell if it was painted prior to being glazed or not. You seem certain it was done after the piece was finished (thus you claim it's a fake).
Please explain to me how, by simply looking at the photo you KNOW it's a fake. I am not trying to be argumental here, I am seriously interested as by simply looking at a photo, you can can tell it's been enhanced with a post firing paint job.

[Thorsten B.]

OK - here is the major part of my post 10 again:

Somebody took a white authentic Allach bird (in this case the Kohlmeise, Allach Nr. 111), put paint on it - maybe some months ago but in any case definitely after 1945 - to let it appear as a coloured version of the said Kohlmeise.

Now that faker - whoever it was - was stupid enough and could not even differentiate between the look of a Kohlmeise and a Rotkehlchen (which has never been produced by Allach at all) - so he mixed that up and the poor result:

A once originally white Allach Kohlmeise was dressed as a Rotkehlchen!


Such a huge mistake just would not have occured among the Allach artists in the period.

Apart from that: compared to authentic colored Allach birds that paint job isn´t of high quality either, just look at the details.

[Robert H]

For my view this coloration job was done from someone in the US. A typical error with no background.

[Steve T]

That is dependent on the skills of the restorer and of the quality of the material he is working with.

Not sure what you are saying. Its a general question to anyone, and not particular to the robin. I'm asking if resin glazes fluoresce, they probably do, but if some don't I guess a pin test would be needed and I doubt any false glaze, resin glaze would pass that, but your answer suggests you think a highly skilled restorer could fool that test?

[pylon1357]

OK - here is the major part of my post 10 again:

Somebody took a white authentic Allach bird (in this case the Kohlmeise, Allach Nr. 111), put paint on it - maybe some months ago but in any case definitely after 1945 - to let it appear as a coloured version of the said Kohlmeise.

Now that faker - whoever it was - was stupid enough and could not even differentiate between the look of a Kohlmeise and a Rotkehlchen (which has never been produced by Allach at all) - so he mixed that up and the poor result:

A once originally white Allach Kohlmeise was dressed as a Rotkehlchen!


Such a huge mistake just would not have occured among the Allach artists in the period.

Apart from that: compared to authentic colored Allach birds that paint job isn´t of high quality either, just look at the details.

I read your post number 10, along with every other post in this topic. I had hoped for some further information to support the claim it is a fake. Unfortunatly you supplied no further facts to support the claim.

The tone of this thead is mixed at best. I can only offer a few observations, and suggestions. Please bare in mind I am not expert in this feild, in fact still a novice. I would like very much to have more input from members with more knowledge.

As has been stated, in it's 'white' form, this bird is a Kohlmeise, in its painted form, it is a Rotkechlchen. You claim that Allach never produced a Rotkehlchen, I do follow that for sure.

For all intents and purposes, a Kohlmeise and a Rotkehlchen are about the same size and weight, if all colour were removed from a living example, the two birds would appear quite close in appearence.

Having said this, what would be the point in producing two birds that are the same in appearence with only the colouring to distinguish the two.

Is it not possible that someone wanted something different and had this painted to resemble a Rotkehlchen. I do not buy into the idea that the dealer who is selling this would make such a mistake. I suspect the later is more along the line of reason.

I suppose there are many tests that would need to be preformed on this item, to put this whole topic to bed.

In my opinion, I feel calling this an outright fake is way out of line at his point in time. You, nor anyone else here knows for sure when it was painted. And there in lies my concern.

[Thorsten B.]

"Please bare in mind I am not expert in this feild, in fact still a novice. I would like very much to have more input from members with more knowledge."


I would like to see someone else approaching with more knowledge as well - let´s wait and see if that will happen.


And yes - I can tell you quite exactly when it was painted because I watch this market very carefully.

[Michael Fay]

casting aspersions

"Please bare in mind I am not expert in this feild, in fact still a novice. I would like very much to have more input from members with more knowledge."


I would like to see someone else approaching with more knowledge as well - let´s wait and see if that will happen.


And yes - I can tell you quite exactly when it was painted because I watch this market very carefully.

If you know "exactly when it was painted", then clearly state it, or stop attacking others with your vague hints at hidden special wisdom.All the while claiming to want to be of service to the WAF community.
WAF does not need this type of SS guru who claims to know but wont say what it is.
This appears to be for your ego more than of service to others.

[Thorsten B.]

?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJI0ZKbtdXA

[Thälmannpionier]

my 2 cents here or observations....from a Allach novice and non allach collector
I cannot see really a fraud here..maybe just a better description on the dealer site is needed...and of course a adjusted price tag.

lets assume this paint job was done/ordered by the pre-owner of this bird before it went to the dealer sometime, because he wanted to have a Robin because he liked those Robins..he probably didnt care if his once white Kohlmeise was now then a Robin.
Someone whos intention was to fake somethng here would have done his homework before painting..and a real Artist or Painter knows exactly what he is doing and if he paints a Kohlmaise or a Robin.
The Dealer actually knows also what it was and now is, because he clearly shows both bird names in his description..he knows its the white #111 Kohlmeise figure but with colour is now a Rotkelchen.
He just should have stated it properly in his desription...and IMO should also adjust the price Tag, becaue I agree the paint job that was done is not a really good one....leaving the middle part of the back feather in pure white..also the Eyes look scary and not done professionally!! only the glaze amazes me on the photos shown on that site.

to sum it up..my guess is that this paint job was done in order from the pre owner of this Item and it wasnt done by a professional porcelain painter nor a faker..just maybe a hobby painter or maybe by the preowner himself and it should be described better on the Site because i agree its confusing..also the price tag doesnt reflect what you are getting..IMO

[pylon1357]

my 2 cents here or observations....from a Allach novice and non allach collector
I cannot see really a fraud here..maybe just a better description on the dealer site is needed...and of course a adjusted price tag.

lets assume this paint job was done/ordered by the pre-owner of this bird before it went to the dealer sometime, because he wanted to have a Robin because he liked those Robins..he probably didnt care if his once white Kohlmeise was now then a Robin.
Someone whos intention was to fake somethng here would have done his homework before painting..and a real Artist or Painter knows exactly what he is doing and if he paints a Kohlmaise or a Robin.
The Dealer actually knows also what it was and now is, because he clearly shows both bird names in his description..he knows its the white #111 Kohlmeise figure but with colour is now a Rotkelchen.
He just should have stated it properly in his desription...and IMO should also adjust the price Tag, becaue I agree the paint job that was done is not a really good one....leaving the middle part of the back feather in pure white..also the Eyes look scary and not done professionally!! only the glaze amazes me on the photos shown on that site.

to sum it up..my guess is that this paint job was done in order from the pre owner of this Item and it wasnt done by a professional porcelain painter nor a faker..just maybe a hobby painter or maybe by the preowner himself and it should be described better on the Site because i agree its confusing..also the price tag doesnt reflect what you are getting..IMO

Your post is exactly the point I was trying to get across. I am glad to read this as I thought I was alone in this opinion.

I fail to see how anyone can out right state it is a fake without taking these points into consideration. I suppose there are tests that could be performed on the paint and glaze to determine chemical composition, however those tests may very well ruin the piece.

[Thorsten B.]

So you assume it is not really a fake.

So you would buy the piece for 8,5K without hesitation, right?

Writing two books about Allach, is probably judged by the common collector to be the expert for Allach porcelain - and not being able to detect that this piece is far away from being an "EXTRAORDINARILY RARE PAINTED KOHLMEISE" does not sound good and convincing at all.

Yes, we all make mistakes.

But then I would expect - at least - from the dealer in question that he steps up, interferes and acts accordingly.

He even is a WAF member as well and yes, offering a humped up Allach piece for an exorbitant price as if it would be the real deal while being an author of two big books about the very same subject - that is more than a mistake for sure.

[Thorsten B.]

Here are more details regarding this scenario:

Check this website - it´s the auction archive of a german auction house.

http://www.historia.de/pages/deutsch/archiv.php

In their auction 104 from July 2011 they offered Lot 2575:

"Meise, Allach, Marke 1936-45, Entwurf Prof. Krieger, Modellnr. 111, weiß, H. 10 cm"

Just one auction later - the 105th, of course - in September 2011 they offered as Lot 2293:

"Rotkehlchen, Allach, Marke 1936-45, Entwurf Prof. Krieger, Modellnr. 111, naturalistisch bemalt, H. 10 cm, B. 13 cm"

In my opinion the auction house itself has nothing to do with that.

It was the buyer of Lot 2575 in July 2011 - and after white Allach Nr. 111 morphed into coloured Allach Nr. 111 it was brought into auction again by this buyer.

So one thing is clear for me as well: it was done in Germany.

It was surely NOT done by Dennis Porell.

He will know from whom he bought the piece, though - and by stepping up here he could do all including himself a favour and tell us more about that source.

Might very well happen one day that that source will offer other members his humped up coloured Allach pieces as well, right?

[Thälmannpionier]

No!!...i wouldnt call it a fake nor a fraud...it is what it looks like..
A messed with #111 i guess..and a confusing description that the seller should sort out very quick!!!!!

A advanced allach collector that is willing to spend such money should know what he is doing.

It wouldt be different if a painted robin is known to produced by allach..i dont know that(writing from mycell phone)