build a frankenstein question.

[NickG]

We're running out of mud!
BRING MORE MUD!

[Jack D.]

"They wanted more Mud!"

[Obergruppen2]

[judas]

[judas]

We're running out of mud!
BRING MORE MUD!

for some i think it has been a long time coming

[jacquesf]

And more noice and no tunics or collection. Jacques

[Reggu]

Sad to se an interesting thread goeing so out of hand, no wounder there is wars in this world, can not people just agree to dissagree



So back to topic, have you decided what to do with the tunic besslein? Do you have any pictures of it?



Bestenes Grüß

[TonyS]

It's nice to see such a wonderful cheery thread this Christmas season, reminds me of the 4th grade recess antics.....it's a wonder anyone posts anything to view. It never seems to be this hostile over on the Wehrmacht or Luftwaffe threads, just odd.

Scott you should know what the SS Forum is like now..... as Ben said:

SS + collectors + internet = argument

I've had some of my tunics dumped on - especially my Wiking Panzer wrap.

Nothing like a good rip-roaring argument on the SS Forum with cursing, personal attacks, suspensions and bannings and members telling everyone this is their last post and running home with their ball and bat.

Especially at Christmas time !!

I do like Johnny's SS tunic restoration - very well done mate.

Oh and a Merry Christmas to all.

[Scott A. Hess]

Scott you should know what the SS Forum is like now..... as Ben said:

SS + collectors + internet = argument

I've had some of my tunics dumped on - especially my Wiking Panzer wrap.

Nothing like a good rip-roaring argument on the SS Forum with cursing, personal attacks, suspensions and bannings and members telling everyone this is their last post and running home with their ball and bat.

Especially at Christmas time !!

I do like Johnny's SS tunic restoration - very well done mate.

Oh and a Merry Christmas to all.

I know...all true..and I ponder nothing shall change it.

I too like Johnny's SS tunic. I doubt I'll ever own an Officers tunic..but they are nice to look at.

Merry Christmas...and happy hunting in the new year.

[Jack D.]

As my Dad once said at the Christmas dinner table...



"Merry Christmas Everyone!"

[Johnny R]

Thanks, on the tunic comments. The restored SS tunic is the only one I have out of many more Heer tunics. I always wanted one to represent SS Nebel (based on talking to SS Vets, most units were piped in red if not all but Judicial boards and jackets are often sold as "Nebel") and bought a stripped SS tunic to restore. I probably saved 5000 (it has the matching breeches as well) creating my own "untouched" example. I am not a bastard and tell people it is not original but I have shown it to experienced collectors and they could not believe it was restored.

I used to have a named paper lot and Wiking panzer wrap and trousers for a young signals officer that was killed later in the War. I obtained the set from the man's family when I lived in Germany in the 1980s and then sold it in 1991. I would love to have posted that for comments I am sure it would have been attacked like everything else.

[kubel44]

Hello, It seems to me that the trouble is that there is a fight as to what the consensus should be on this subject matter. Beliefs on restoring a tunic can be very different.Eventhough most people here consider themselves similar collectors It seems to be different ideals with different types of collectors. We all collect things for different reason, price, originality, condition rarity etc, etc. Although many individuals collect SS material some only have an item or 2 while others have collections worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and more. With the vast array of individuals collecting what is the right thing to do with a restoration now becomes perspective of that individual and not necessarily if the status quo of the collecting realm. Hey, what is the status quo????? I do not think this has actually been confirmed. Which is why this and other thread like this one are flourishing. I have bought most of my SS tunics unrestored and stripped. I only have 3 that have original insignia to them (even that is open to debate.) I will add now add my 2 sense and my perspective to this matter. When I began collecting over 25 years ago I tried to buy any tunic I could just because they are so rare. I was just happy to have a real tunic,stripped of its insignia or not! Also tunics that were considered to have full and original insignia to them were twice as expensive!!!!!The irony though is that most of these tunics cost between $800 to $1200.Mein Gott I wished I bought more of them!!! My early days of collecting where somewhat limited to what was affordable. My theory and reality was to buy the tunics stripped for I can not afford them any other way, than save and by the correct period insignia with similar wear, This with expert application and proper period thread I never had any problem.

[jacquesf]

I don't think the issue in this thread is really about restoration or not, but rather about members expressing opinions about and challenging other collectors and their collections without showing and sharing their own items or collections. After all the noise they made, when challenged their silence is deafening.

Also of interest is that those being the most vocal fail to pay the $25 to become Association members. Especially in view of their energtic and highly opinionated participation on the forum. Jacques

[kubel44]

Hello, It seems to me that the trouble is that there is a fight as to what the consensus should be on this subject matter. Beliefs on restoring a tunic can be very different.Eventhough most people here consider themselves similar collectors It seems to be different ideals with different types of collectors. We all collect things for different reason, price, originality, condition rarity etc, etc. Although many individuals collect SS material some only have an item or 2 while others have collections worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and more. With the vast array of individuals collecting what is the right thing to do with a restoration now becomes perspective of that individual and not necessarily if the status quo of the collecting realm. Hey, what is the status quo????? I do not think this has actually been confirmed. Which is why this and other thread like this one are flourishing. I have bought most of my SS tunics unrestored and stripped. I only have 3 that have original insignia to them (even that is open to debate.) I will add now add my 2 sense and my perspective to this matter. When I began collecting over 25 years ago I tried to buy any tunic I could just because they are so rare. I was just happy to have a real tunic,stripped of its insignia or not! Also tunics that were considered to have full and original insignia to them were twice as expensive!!!!!The irony though is that most of these tunics cost between $800 to $1200.Mein Gott I wished I bought more of them!!! My early days of collecting where somewhat limited to what was affordable. My theory and reality was to buy the tunics stripped for I can not afford them any other way, than save and by the correct period insignia with similar wear, This with expert application and proper period thread I never had any problem.

I am actually not done.. I accidentally sent my commentary with out completion, ANYWAY Her is my next point. Even amongst individuals perspective can and does change. Me personally I collected tunics as an after thought or for a means to augment my camouflage collection. I began collecting ss camo exclusively and it WAS first and foremost. I was a camo junkie and did not want tunics or hats or anything else with a swasterka (deliberately misspelled). Then after looking at books, magazines and collector publications. I thought it would be really cool to accent my camo display with say a tunic a hat or helmet etc, etc. I now love it all and try to balance my collection. I then wanted to have have tunics as much as camo. My first tunic to be used underneath a smock so the SS runics would show. Now that is my perspective on ONE tunic, or at least my first tunic. Do you have one or more tunics? If you have one tunic do want one just to complete a sampling of the german armed forces? I s this the only SS tunic you want to display? If so who are you displaying it to yourself, others? Do you just want a real example to be a regular real and modest piece or do you want it to hump it up to look like a Prussian General? or some where in between? Do you care what others think? Anyway after I bought my first tunic my collecting then took another turn. I began to try to not only get different camo patterns but different styles of tunics! I then had a mid war tunic a late war tunic a trop tunic and an officer tunic! I then began to want to display the tunics as much as the camo items! I had a few runic plain enlisted tunics and thought it would be cool to have a couple enlisted tunics with tokenkopf insignia! I never had any problem with this. Yes I was making the totenkopf tunic into something it probably never was, BUT WHERE ON EARTH CAN YOU FIND A TOTENKOPF TUNIC THAT HAS ORIGINAL INSIGNIA FOR UNDER $2000??? YOU CAN'T I therefore truly did the next best thing, I made mine. Actually for under $1500!!!! I found a wonderful non stitched tab that had wear even though it was never sewed on to anything before. It looks like a beautiful match for the m42 jacket that it has been sewn onto. I also justified this historically for Totenkopf was around for longer than most divisions.and is one of the premier division that was indeed issued the m42 . Later I was lucky early on to obtain an NCO's tunic. It did not have any medals or anything. But it is in exquisite condition and was hemmed for the individual who owned it, Definitiley this was the original owners walking out or dress jacket. I hemmed and hawed for many years if I should even add an IAB or a KC. I was in a quandary for a while. But I came to terms that if there was a jacket that would appropriate to add these medals and this one was it! Absolutley on a combat NCO's jacket is the way to go! When I displayed The tunics I began to think they all look plain for they are still look the same even though they were different styles, years of manufacture and conditions. I believed and still do that If I humped one tunic up it was justified if only one was.If every tunic I had was humped up it would look, tacky, gaudy to much bling bling. There is a time and place for that but with ss enlisted tunics. I respect the badge collectors and I have seen nice displays of cabinets full of medals and badges but I think it is cool to display at least some medals on a uniform! This is where there were made to be displayed. After all right on a uniform? Not only did I add the IAB but a WB, KC and a German cross in cloth! Defintley Humped up and I am the first to admit but, it also , IMHO it looks totally freaking bad ass!! I actually joke about this tunic and refer to it as my Humpty Hump!! Now what is your perspective? and justification? It is not necessary though for once someone buys it is their tunic to do what ever they want! although we are truly just temporary holders of the goods!Does it matter anyway? What about unrestored tunics?? MMMMMMMmmm If it is your only tunic freak yeah! put the correct insignias on it!!! Again this is what these tunics were made for insignia. If you display it with out it in a way, it is NOT historically accurate, How do you see the tunics in movie reels and pics. With runic tabs duh!!! simple stupid right, NO seriously I am going to contradict myself. IF, you have such a plethora of tunics and much cash, It could be nice to display a tunic on a rack next to rest of your ss tunics that is truly unissued and plain. Realistically, the only way though that most people can afford an ss tunic is to buy one stripped or unissued and then add insignia. Not taboo IMO. Summing it up, There is a broad spectrum out there in the collector world. Some who only collect tunics that were never messed and have many of these. Then there are those who save there whole life to have just one tunic and the instant they get it they can not contain themselves and smother it with love and much insignia! You have read my perspective and I guess my look is somewhere in the middle, Did I help the community come closer to a consensus or increase the disparity. ??Anyway, thank you for reading my gossip..

[A c h t u n g !]

I don't think the issue in this thread is really about restoration or not, but rather about members expressing opinions about and challenging other collectors and their collections without showing and sharing their own items or collections. After all the noise they made, when challenged their silence is deafening.

Also of interest is that those being the most vocal fail to pay the $25 to become Association members. Especially in view of their energtic and highly opinionated participation on the forum. Jacques

Actually the issue in this thread is about restored uniforms and restoration. Some people don't like restoration, they call restored uniforms "frankenstein", "christmas tree", "fantasy", "the irresponsible and unethical behavior", "ethically wrong", "destroying an original item", "destroying history", etc. And at the same time the very same people restore uniforms and call it "correct historical configuration"! Isn't something? But to be honest I am not surprised at all. Also, the most if not all collectors put awards on their uniforms for display but some of these very same collectors call others collectors'displays "christmas tree", "fantasy", etc.
As to me I personally have no problem with restored (or with added awards) uniforms as they are original items. I agree that a restored tunic is not in the exact same configuration as it was 70 years ago and that's OK. IMO if it is not attached to a personality/ a specific individual with a history the tunic is an original uniform that represents WW2 German forces in general not an individual whos history is not really important anyway.