W-SS M-43 & Bergmutze difference

[Obergruppen2]

I have been studying reference literature for some time now, comparing many period photo's and yet i still have a question, main difference between a W-SS M-43 and a W-SS Bergmutze !
The main characteristics of both caps are well known, angle of the front of the side flap, crown, but i am still a bit confused as some M-43's have a tk on the front of the crown and eagle on the side flap, some W-SS Bergmutze have a shorter brim and yet some a longer and also both tk & eagle on the front , same goes for Bergmutze ( please see pics attached ), if this has been allready discussed here at the forum, my apologies, thank you

[Obergruppen2]

[PMan]

Burgmuetze

Ober,
Can u post a side by side image of what u consider a typical M43 and then a burgmuetze. That may be helpful.
Peter

[Obergruppen2]

Ober,
Can u post a side by side image of what u consider a typical M43 and then a burgmuetze. That may be helpful.
Peter

Bergmutze














M-43 Einheitsmutze

[PBR]

but i am still a bit confused as some M-43's have a tk on the front of the crown and eagle on the side flap, some W-SS Bergmutze have a shorter brim and yet some a longer and also both tk & eagle on the front , same goes for Bergmutze ( please see pics attached

Well Ober, if I recall correctly, regulations stated that TK has to be worn on the front and eagle on the side of the M43 and Bergmutzen both, so the 2 insignas sewn on the front was not "regulation", but I'm not 100% sure about this.
Anyway I can say you that was up to the owner, I mean that I've seen many pictures of M43 and Bergmutzen with the double insignas on the front, that was a common thing.
I've seen this a bit more on Bergmutzen or M43 used by alpine troops, I think because there was little room on the side for both the adler and edelweiss, so they prefered to use double insignas on the front and edelweiss on the side.

Just my 2 Tellers.

[Obergruppen2]

Well Ober, if I recall correctly, regulations stated that TK has to be worn on the front and eagle on the side of the M43 and Bergmutzen both, so the 2 insignas sewn on the front was not "regulation", but I'm not 100% sure about this.
Anyway I can say you that was up to the owner, I mean that I've seen many pictures of M43 and Bergmutzen with the double insignas on the front, that was a common thing.
I've seen this a bit more on Bergmutzen or M43 used by alpine troops, I think because there was little room on the side for both the adler and edelweiss, so they prefered to use double insignas on the front and edelweiss on the side.

Just my 2 Tellers.

Maybe so , the Heer Bergmutze is very easy to distinguish from the Heer M-43, the higher crown and shorter brim are the main features of the Herr Bergmutze besides the T shaped insignia and metal edelweiss but when it comes to the W-SS the trouble starts because if you look at period pics you will see a mix of everything, short & long brims, higher and shorter crowns but i guess it is the side flap in the front of the crown, where the single or double buttons are, they are round and not with sharp edges as on the M-43 but then this is also not a rule !!!

[PMan]

Bergmuetze

Interesting thread. I too am not sure of specific differences and have asked this question to others as well. One mans Bergmuetze is another mans M43, and visa-versa.
Peter

[Obergruppen2]

Interesting thread. I too am not sure of specific differences and have asked this question to others as well. One mans Bergmuetze is another mans M43, and visa-versa.
Peter

Exactly my point but if you have the following books ( Prinz Eugen- The History of the 7.SS Mountain Division, Prinz Eugen im Bild, Karstjager ) one could come to a conclusion that the main difference is the front flap whis more curved and round than the sharp edged front flap on the M-43 and the top of the side flap is more loose on the Bergmutze but as i said, this also cannot be a rule !

[Obergruppen2]

W-SS M-43 Einheitsmutze













W-SS Bergmutze


















Any comments , thank you

[Obergruppen2]

Where are all the experts ?????????

[ferdinandmax]

this type is Bergmuetze, LP sergio

[Obergruppen2]

this type is Bergmuetze, LP sergio

Sergio, Heer Bergmutze yes but not Waffen-SS, some have just front leather head reinforcement and some have none !!!

[Obergruppen2]

Here is a good example of a double button bergmutze !

[BenVK]

Might I suggest that rather than trying to categorize all types of SS feldmuetzen into what is considered today as bergmuetzen or not, look in the period publications regarding the correct terms for such caps and for RZM tags.

As far as I'm aware, there was never an officialy recorded "SS Bergmuetze".

All our post war intentions to classify one is pretty meaningless. For sure there are SS caps that exhibit the classic construction details of the Heer Bergmuetze, which for me is all about how the crown seam is sewn, the cloth wrapped stiffener in the front etc etc. Some of the photos in this thread already show the unique crown sewing which I would consider exclusive to a bergmuetze but that doesn't make them officialy an "SS" bergmuetzen.

Within the UM and SS Kleiderkasse publications (correct me if I'm wrong) there is no mention of an SS Bergmuetze. There is however, mention of SS hats and other garments described as sports or ski items.

However, I doubt that most collectors would even know what I'm talking about here because you have to read the period publications to know that.

[BenVK]

Excellent photos by the way though!