Distinguishing SS M40 tunics from Heer ones

[Zauberflöte]

Here is another one:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=M40&page=2

and:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=M40

[m1steelpot]

Hello
Pics a of a original salty SS jacket but with the same confection of heer jacket !
NO differnce with a Heer jacket !

That is a Heer M40 with SS insignia. Could have been reissued, or procured by the SS. At any rate it is a Heer style contract M40 Bluse.

[n160]

...the history of skirts lenght could be justified by thousand pictures (especially of TK div) were soldiers shown a modified m36 into m37 with shortened skirts.

I'm not talking about modified tunics. I mean as they came from the factory.
SS tunics are shorter- just check the size stamps.

[n160]

As for the "maker variation" idea. Yes, there are such things. I see them all the time- it gives us wiggle room when making uniforms. But...the patterns remain rather constant.

Let's take this business about the skirt length. One of the most common back waist lengths (bwl) (this is the German equivalent to long, short, etc), is "43". Heer tunics in that size have total lengths of 70-72 cm, which makes for a 27-29cm skirt. (This holds for all Heer tunics- wool, hbt, and tropical).

SS tunics with a 43 bwl are almost always 68 overall...a 25cm skirt. Don't take my word for it, look them up online, in the Beaver books, etc, etc. M36, M37, M42, M43, 44 dot and Sahariana- you name it, they've got it. That's obviously more than a "variation". Since all other "accepted SS" tunic models use the same proportions- why is it so hard to believe the M40/41would?

So far, 100% of the tunics with the "SS lining" have the same skirt proportions, slightly wider collars and all were or are blatantly SS. I may be just a kook, but this is no more just a slip of the cutting knife or a moody tailor than 6 button fronts are.

Yes, the SS did wear some Heer tunics. Authenticating those will forever be a battle of provenance, forensics and trust. My point is that there are some M40/41's that are actually SS pattern, just as there are SS M42-43's. Providing the tunic itself is original, the rest of the battle will be much easier.

[NickG]

As for the "maker variation" idea. Yes, there are such things. I see them all the time- it gives us wiggle room when making uniforms. But...the patterns remain rather constant.

Let's take this business about the skirt length. One of the most common back waist lengths (bwl) (this is the German equivalent to long, short, etc), is "43". Heer tunics in that size have total lengths of 70-72 cm, which makes for a 27-29cm skirt. (This holds for all Heer tunics- wool, hbt, and tropical).

SS tunics with a 43 bwl are almost always 68 overall...a 25cm skirt. Don't take my word for it, look them up online, in the Beaver books, etc, etc. M36, M37, M42, M43, 44 dot and Sahariana- you name it, they've got it. That's obviously more than a "variation". Since all other "accepted SS" tunic models use the same proportions- why is it so hard to believe the M40/41would?

So far, 100% of the tunics with the "SS lining" have the same skirt proportions, slightly wider collars and all were or are blatantly SS. I may be just a kook, but this is no more just a slip of the cutting knife or a moody tailor than 6 button fronts are.

Yes, the SS did wear some Heer tunics. Authenticating those will forever be a battle of provenance, forensics and trust. My point is that there are some M40/41's that are actually SS pattern, just as there are SS M42-43's. Providing the tunic itself is original, the rest of the battle will be much easier.

Good stuff! I am starting to get convinced based on this as well as the examples posted so far!
Like I wrote earlier:
If this theory that manufacturing differences and size variations (collar and length) can make a distinction between Heer contract M40's and SS contract M40/41 combat uniforms, it can could boost the value of the latter! (without the provenance now needed that the tunic was always SS used!)
With this revelation the "SS liner cut" would become the proof!
Indeed no more forensics or provenance needed!

I am starting to like my SS cut M40 (with added M36 collar) even more now!!!

[kapitein]

Lets dig into this further!!!

BTT
This thread is too interesting to die as I believe that the research done is valuable and should be investigated further!
I do understand that some doubts exist but the theory and statistics are good and after ample research I am now also a believer that indeed WSS tunic contracts could have had their own production specifications for their liner cut. Would indeed like to see further comments on this thread and I am very interested to see if WH tunics exist with this so called 'two fold WSS liner cut and length'!
Anyone???
Kapitein

[A c h t u n g !]

I went through probably all threads about Army M40 tunics archived on this great forum and I did not find a single Army M40 tunic with the "two angle/SS" lining. I find it very interesting because in this thread we quickly found a few of example of tunics with this "two angle" lining and all of them - SS.
I started a new thread in WH Uniforms Forum, so stay tuned and let's see if anyone there has an Army M40 tunic with this lining

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=555365

[turenne]

feldbluse

Hello,
thanks for that very interresting and high level thread!!!
One question, more than 30 years ago, as I began collecting I got in contact with a ss Items collector who only had few feldbluse at this time period. He only collected "2 holes" model, what about this model????

REGARDS

[kapitein]

Turenne
Read this Its quit interesting
http://www.atthefront.com/historical...ol_tunics.html
Kapitein

[n160]

I think the simplest concept escaped most of us in this...

Name any SS tunic that isn't somewhat different from the Heer equivalent. Fieldgray, HBT, Panzer, Assault Gun, Tropical. Only the M44- maybe. If anybody has a Betr. Ra. M44 perhaps it deserves a closer look.

If SS M40's were identical to Army ones, then THAT would be the oddity, not the other way around.

[Richard P]

Turenne
Read this Its quit interesting
http://www.atthefront.com/historical...ol_tunics.html
Kapitein

I think the simplest concept escaped most of us in this...

Name any SS tunic that isn't somewhat different from the Heer equivalent. Fieldgray, HBT, Panzer, Assault Gun, Tropical. Only the M44- maybe. If anybody has a Betr. Ra. M44 perhaps it deserves a closer look.

If SS M40's were identical to Army ones, then THAT would be the oddity, not the other way around.

These two posts cover a lot of important information, but mainly misinformation. It grates on me every time I describe a panzer wrap as 1st model or 2nd pattern, or whatever, because they are anything but...broken up into a few simple models.

There are so many differences as to defy belief. I have seen so much mixing of the "collector designated" model numbers to make them absurd. Hopefully this kind of posting will begin to dispel a lot of carry over created by collectors/authors in classifications not based on actual German descriptions or numeric assignments.

Richard

[viva_giulio]

I'm not talking about modified tunics. I mean as they came from the factory.
SS tunics are shorter- just check the size stamps.

i mean... why early SSVT shortened their m36 tunics? why this was so common in TK or 1,2,3 on Poland?

Your observation of a shorter SS cut was involved in the usual modification of m36 into m37?

[NickG]

Hi Besslein
Plse do us a favour and check the lining of your M40 WSS tunic and get back to us, I think you will be surprised!
Looking forward to your answer and pics !
kapitein

As far as I understand patterns and panel templates were sent out after design and approval to manufacturers from the SS so this makes sense that they would all tow the line. For mass production there would be template patterns in set sizes for panels etc. for both linings and jacket pieces (panels etc.). I have not dug into my tunics out but I suspect this is correct. There may have been some slight variations but probably not a lot especially early. N160 knows what he is talking about regarding tunics I can say that. Uniform Markt might have something in it on this.

Okay, all of my early Heer issue tunics are the same as the picture describing the three angle cut. I still suspect there will be a couple enigmas out there. The SS also received items from outside the camp system. This does not "disprove" the observation but there might be some variations.

in my opionion this is absurd theory,hey ,i have one m40 SS ,but to be honest i dont need to check it inside,as is on display.

I bet Besslein has already checked his tunic and it is just the "Army" lining, that's why he refused to believe and called it "absurd theory". But that's OK as we don't need to see SS tunics in this thread or hear opinions about it because the only purpose of this thread is to find a picture of the Army M40 tunic with the "two-angle/SS" lining - Army M40 tunic, not SS. But I am pretty much sure they do not exist because I probably went through all archived threads about the Army M40 tunics - none of them has this "SS-cut" lining.

Above comments all pasted from the wehrmacht section running a parallel thread on this interesting topic (theory: Heer versus SS pattern M40 liners)

Besslein, it can't be too much work, please check your SS M40 tunic mannequin and share your findings with us!, as it could be further proof,if indeed yours also has a
2 angle "SS" liner cut!
In case your SS M40 tunic has the 3 angle (WH) liner cut, all that means is that its been issued through the army supply chain as opposed to SS (camp) chain...(if this theory is a true one).

So for not 1 example of an untouched Wehrmacht M40 has surfaced with a 2 angle "SS" liner panel in the Wehrmacht section of the forum... What does that tell us?
No examples shown in the WH section thus far.... NONE....Is that further proof that this theory is ligit? I would believe it strengthens WAF member n160's case!

[besslein]

Nick ok,will check tommarow,

[NickG]

Nick ok,will check tommarow,

Thanks Besslein! I think it will be revealing! I am already convinced.

Here is a tunic than member Gran Sasso showed us last year. (image credit to him).
It is a combat tunic, as he described it as being a M36 model (or otherwise a later M40 with early dark green pointy
collar added...liner looks like rayon actually so later type is my feeling)...
Anyway an Army type but modified lower pockets to make it look like SS-VT (but with dark green M36 collar)!

It was the TK NCO's best tunic and he got married in it so it was tailored. Its been shortened
but also earlier VT style M37 style internal pockets were added to it...
so ignore those!!! Its an M40 in my book. Just look at the liner! (you can tell where the external M36/M40 pockets were located if you look closely)

Another bingo! Look at the angle, its definately NOT a 3 step assembly!