Knautschmuetze SS Officer

[besslein]

this is a WK2 Visor, SS Panzer, but i dont no if this one is original....

This Moschi wrote a collector of World War 1, the Imperial section, I am not qualified on the material Imperial greetings sergio

posted my hat in the Imperial sektion

Moschi is right for sure

[PMan]

Cap

I agree that this piping would still be in the range of shades that can be found used in 3rd Reich era PZ uniform items. The cap shape is tougher for me because some imperial caps were cut pretty close to what could be found (based on photos at least) in WWII crushers.

I do think that this one has a lower peak and smaller sized top in general than what is normally seen on a WWII crusher.

Seems to be an accurate statement. But that said, the hat can't be real, it just can't be, no way........right???? Impossible

[John Pic]

Bob Rice used to throw these together all the time .

[SgtB]

Bob Rice used to throw these together all the time .

Do you mean original Imperial (or pre-TR) caps with SS insignia, John? Or ground-up fakes?

I would like to see it stuffed with padding or resting with it's "ceiling" on a hat stand, to see if it has that tell-tale bell-crown shape of earlier caps.

I've studied endless period photos, and whenever I see "crushers" like this one with the TR eagle wings nearly touching the crown piping and the bottom of the wreath within a cm of the upper band piping, it always throws up a huge redflag for me. Even on tellermutze caps, there was always ( ) more room on originals. Plus, I don't like the raw leather underside on TR crushers.

I agree with those that believe this is an original German military cap with SS badges installed. A close examination for previous badge-signs is the way to go.

[John Pic]

Actually I think he used both even some all black but the pipinig was only on the top edge of the band on those black ones.

[phild]

I'm back in the fence with this cap. I think that it could be private made SS PZ cap for NCO or even officer...as I doubt that the black velvet band was a must have on these caps as worn by officers.....the period photos certainly show this as the case.

If the cap was for instance made in Vienna it would be reasonable for it to show a lot of little differences with German made caps.....that show differences between themselves as well.

Sorry this is the best I can offer.....but if no other traces of Imperial cockades can be seen....it may be a real crusher....it needs more than photos posted on a forum I think.

[ferdinandmax]

here's another tell me what you are interested greetings sergio

[NickG]

I'm back in the fence with this cap. I think that it could be private made SS PZ cap for NCO or even officer...as I doubt that the black velvet band was a must have on these caps as worn by officers.....the period photos certainly show this as the case.

If the cap was for instance made in Vienna it would be reasonable for it to show a lot of little differences with German made caps.....that show differences between themselves as well.

Sorry this is the best I can offer.....but if no other traces of Imperial cockades can be seen....it may be a real crusher....it needs more than photos posted on a forum I think.

I agree with Phild...its all speculation... I would be pleased to own it as presented.
(provided there are no holes of prior imperial insignia and I don't see any! )
Note leather visor comparison;
Yes agreed the leather bill is "imperial" length (short) but not much different than this portrait!
This altes model as a very short top...looks imperial to me!

[NickG]

Now this presentation (modified) sure looks imperial (short top! short bill) but its obviously not!
As presented the SS crusher has no (imperial) date stamps that were removed, and no obvious extra holes as far as I can tell so its believable to me... regardless of supposedly imperial shape issues... but I understand its SS and pink piped so people are cautious with their opinions!

[Arran]

Try measuring the length of the four seams around the sides of the crown to see of they are the same length- a very Imperial characteristic...

[ferdinandmax]

on the front side 5 cm

on the back side 4,5 greetings sergio

[BenVK]

I think it's fair to say that no definite conclusion could ever be realistically be reached about this cap based on the small and poor quality photos (no offence meant) plus TR era Alter Art Feldmeutzen are quite close in design to their Imperial cousins anyway.

However, my gut feeling is that it's Imperial or at least of pre WWII era because of one main reason.

Branch piping for SS caps was not introduced until 1940 and the materials and some of the construction details of this hat speak quite clearly to me at least as being made before 1940.

[Bob Hritz]

I would think that hat sellers, during the early 3rd Reich period, would have used left over Imperial era headgear if the pattern matched the SS type. From period photos, many of the early field worn hats appear to be more of the Imperial shape and more shorter peaked with short visors.

Bob Hritz

[Richard P]

Ben and Bob,

Both valid observations with merit giving us more food for thought and analysis. Thank you both for your measured responses that prompt further study and hopefully MORE photos.

Richard

[Richard P]

Nick,

Thanks for your photos and illustrations. I noticed that this cap when viewed from the front appears to have more side overhang than many Imperial era caps which definitely lends to the TR appearance. The visor is more problematic for me...but I have seen some Imperial appearing types on definite TR era visors. More food for thought. Thanks,

Richard