skulls

[Winkelman]

The " feathered " sutures on the right temple for instance .

But there are also striking similarities in detail , e.g. the tiny " ribbed " portion in between the right side bones , the silver finish , and the very material ( striped zinc ) itself .. ?

When comparing the 2 side by side ( in very good condition , not relic ) , I'm still not ready to accept that fakers picked up perfectly on these details 40 years ago - while others turned out junk like the RZM41 skulls & M9-72 monkeys . And then failed to choose a pin reverse , which is what all the controversy is about .. ?

So IMHO just a failed experiment with new dies by Assmann at war's end - never or hardly ever issued - but found as large leftover old stock together with their latest type eagles ( about which there seem to be no doubt ) , and both then abused on repro caps ..

[tgn]

sorry, i have to disagree.. known post-war fakes

Who made these well-know fakes? They have bee around since at least the 1960's, maybe earlier.

Tom

[cris403]

Bob, I think the number of disbelievers has become less. I like them as well. I have 1 in my collection.

I also believe these to be original (have 2 of these in my collection. picked both up cheap).

[David Guist]

I believe these to be original. Best regards.

[rzzzm]

The " feathered " sutures on the right temple for instance .

But there are also striking similarities in detail , e.g. the tiny " ribbed " portion in between the right side bones , the silver finish , and the very material ( striped zinc ) itself .. ?

When comparing the 2 side by side ( in very good condition , not relic ) , I'm still not ready to accept that fakers picked up perfectly on these details 40 years ago - while others turned out junk like the RZM41 skulls & M9-72 monkeys . And then failed to choose a pin reverse , which is what all the controversy is about .. ?

So IMHO just a failed experiment with new dies by Assmann at war's end - never or hardly ever issued - but found as large leftover old stock together with their latest type eagles ( about which there seem to be no doubt ) , and both then abused on repro caps ..

[SScollector]

Here is my mint one. As you can see, it does not have the same doted sutures as the known original Assmann skulls, (in the area pointed here). It is also missing the die flaw ridge that runs on the outside of the crossbones on all known original Assmann skulls. I have owned several of these and some of them had defects that appeared to be small casting holes in the inside of the nose area.

[SScollector]

Here, you can see that the crossbone detail is nothing compared to the known originals. In fact, the nose, teeth, and everything else is much weaker than the known originals. One could argue that this is just die wear, but as I said, most of them have defects inside the nose and eye sockets which does not look good, (especially with all of the other differences on top of those).

[SScollector]

Furthermore, these three prong skulls do not have consistent shear marks around the outer edge, which is ALWAYS prominent on any original skull or eagle. Here is a picture of some original "GES.GESCH." bones and sutures.

[PMan]

Comparison

The comparisons shown in post 22 and 23 are lit completely different. The original Assmann in post 23 has deeper shadowing giving it the appearance of more depth and detail whereas the image in post 22 is flooded with light eliminating all shadows and depth. I have tried to recreate a comparison showing similar lighting using one of the 3 prong skulls shown early on in this thread. I think the bone detail becomes more similar to the original Assmann example to the left.

[SScollector]

I have compared them in my hands in the exact same lighting and it looks exactly like what is showed here in my photos. The lighting/shadows does not effect what I am showing here. I can take more pictures of them in the same lighting and show you the exact same thing again.
This, I can guarantee.

Best, Chris

[Frederic H]

What do you guys think about this:
Assmann Skull that Charles Warriner has for sale, the front is a 3 prong design, while the skull has 2 prongs in the back.
Is it possible that there is yet another variant

[PMan]

Skulls

I have compared them in my hands in the exact same lighting and it looks exactly like what is showed here in my photos. The lighting/shadows does not effect what I am showing here. I can take more pictures of them in the same lighting and show you the exact same thing again.
This, I can guarantee.

Best, Chris

I am not really sure what all this means or what it proves. I think new stamping dies were cut for the 3 prong design before the wars end. The "general" characteristics were maintained. There is indeed a striking similarity to the 2 pin Assmann which required hand work to attach 2 pins. I think those hands had new duties such as shooting at enemy soldiers with a panzerfaust.

[maestro]

you gentlemen have made some very interesting remarks and well noted observations.. its rather difficult to decide.. chris, peter & winkelman..

i'm wondering, why 3 prongs.. the nazis hardly came out with inefficient crap! given the toll of the war and how limited were expensive and time-consuming materials, could the 3rd prong serve as a better design for a cheaper made version of the original molds? same logic would apply to other relics made near the end of the war.

also, i would think if someone is going into the trouble of copying an original, why would they comeup with a completely different design? would it not be easier to pass on your copy as an original deshler, for example, if it had just 2 prongs.. things that make you wonder

[SScollector]

I'm not trying to prove anything, nor do I want to discourage anyone who likes these skulls. I just felt obligated to share my observations as I have always done here.

Chris

[Winkelman]

I'm not trying to prove anything, nor do I want to discourage anyone who likes these skulls. I just felt obligated to share my observations as I have always done here.

Chris

Highly appreciated Chris .. !

Some details are indeed weaker than on the accepted ones , just found it interesting to find some characteristics that are similar as well . And however this turns out , it never hurts to have a civilized discussion - I've always been curious about these .

Frederic , I think the one you showed is a 3-prong version , that was altered at one time ..