True Gestapo Armband

[RobertE]

Yes, they did work together. I thought you were suggesting that the SD WAS the Gestapo in occupied countries, and that there were no Gestapo that may have been still serving as Gestapo personnel in occupied countries.

Look at the organization listing I posted. I am not trying to bait anyone here, but can anyone produce the regulations for all stations in all the countries? I don't mean snipets, but the actual regulations? Including all changes and additions for the entire occupation period?

I'm happy to leave it alone at this point - it's OK for us to not agree.

[juoneen]

I have known for years they make fakes from copying originals. I too have scored such hoards, and all the items totally original, although sometimes things not as often seen and not even long time ss collectors could verify some of the items , as this with provenance have my thumbs up in regard to have to give serious considerations, unless the person is know to have a habit of being caught being untruthful, as a common habit, which i dont think this guy is from past posts. Whenm he didnt know what something originality was, as sometimes as all of us he buys what he sees, without provenance or takes photos prior to buying. I dont know the guy, but believe his word it was vet brought back, and it doesnt seem there is any untruthfulness in the story. So my vote is
We are here to learn, and its nice to have a look at such an item, and know what an original looks like...although now so do all the fakers from hells half acre. This also makes one proceed with caution, to tatto the photo of this one to your brains as i noticed in one drawing the stamp was in a different spot, but the same as yours in another actual photo so maybe it just has tio have the stamp visible plainly ....who knows...and would you say robert F that it is made of some material similar looking to my dads farm bags he used to have his corn custom ground in at the cv co-op. It looks like it is made to resist water, or bad weather , as it get muggy and rainy in germany at times id say . So can you describe its feel? like a nylon weave, or maybe they didnt have nylon at the time, how would you describe it....thanks and congratulations . Ps, question...would you chance to speculate on if the sr# would be attached to the man in his soldbook or on other record keeping ?

[PMan]

Gestapo

Well, they didn't seem too shy about advertising who they were. Here is a larger than life sign in the main hallway of one of the headquarters buildings. I have another shot of this from a different angle if anyone is interested in seeing it.

[JoeW]

Robert, I admire the detail that you are presenting in support of your brassard. But the organizational structure of the Gestapo in occupied countries or in the Greater Reich is irrelevant to our discussion. We do know most of the identifications used by agents of the Gestapo as has been presented by Graham over the past year or so. And we know the uniforms as it has been identified in Mollo's volume on the Sicherheitspolizei. The SIPO/RSHA was very consistent in their organization throughout Europe. Their agents were told when to where grey when on duty and when not to. The Im Dienste der Sicherheitspolizei is documented by regulation dating from 1942 or 1943 if I remember.

I cannot read the stamp on that image you posted from the Sackenreuther grouping? Do you have a larger image of it?

I had forgotten that I had this piece for a long time. Back from the late 1970s I think. It displays the same stamp as on yours? Notice the issue number and the subtle aging!



To me the stamp seals its fate. The Geheimes Staatspolizeiamt was located in Berlin. No where else. So any discussion of issuance to one of the Gestapo Stelle, Leitstelle or anywhere else in Europe is irrelevant, as the stamp would have reflected that particular authority.

This has been an interesting dicussion and the cache you acquired has items that are the envy of many.

[PMan]

Armband

Robert, I admire the detail that you are presenting in support of your brassard. But the organizational structure of the Gestapo in occupied countries or in the Greater Reich is irrelevant to our discussion. We do know most of the identifications used by agents of the Gestapo as has been presented by Graham over the past year or so. And we know the uniforms as it has been identified in Mollo's volume on the Sicherheitspolizei. The SIPO/RSHA was very consistent in their organization throughout Europe. Their agents were told when to where grey when on duty and when not to. The Im Dienste der Sicherheitspolizei is documented by regulation dating from 1942 or 1943 if I remember.

I cannot read the stamp on that image you posted from the Sackenreuther grouping? Do you have a larger image of it?

I had forgotten that I had this piece for a long time. Back from the late 1970s I think. It displays the same stamp as on yours? Notice the issue number and the subtle aging!



To me the stamp seals its fate. The Geheimes Staatspolizeiamt was located in Berlin. No where else. So any discussion of issuance to one of the Gestapo Stelle, Leitstelle or anywhere else in Europe is irrelevant, as the stamp would have reflected that particular authority.

This has been an interesting dicussion and the cache you acquired has items that are the envy of many.

Hi Joe,
I hope your not showing your example as proof that Robert E's armband is fake. I agree however that yours is fake. What I do find very interesting is that there was knowledge of this armband back in the 1970's that a copy was made in the form of what you just posted.
Peter

[CurtD]

From my observations, the armbands in the photos posted by Hundestaffel are the same type as in the cigarette card. I.e., they are large script and not small print. Much closer to the presumed fake posted by JoeW.

[JoeW]

Peter, I threw in the armband as further example of the misapplication of the particular Gestapo stamp. If your read my post, you will understand my reasoning for considering Robert E's and mine as reproductions. I do not find it unusualf/interesting that fakers were aware of this armband back then. One is illustrated in the SHAEF police book published in 1944 and wasn't one also illustrated in Jack Pia's "Nazi Regalia"?

[PMan]

Armband

Peter, I threw in the armband as further example of the misapplication of the particular Gestapo stamp. If your read my post, you will understand my reasoning for considering Robert E's and mine as reproductions. I do not find it unusualf/interesting that fakers were aware of this armband back then. One is illustrated in the SHAEF police book published in 1944 and wasn't one also illustrated in Jack Pia's "Nazi Regalia"?

Well, if faked in the 70's, what was it copied from? I think Robert E's type band.
Only other option is a complete fantasy. I believe Robert's band is a righteous piece. Just my opinion.

[Silesien]

No such armband is in Jack Pia's 'Nazi Regalia', nor his 'SS Regalia' book.

[billbert]

Hi Robert
For what its worth and EVEN if it defies logic..I like your armband ..It in quality looks somewhat like some vet sources functionary printed armbands I picked up a while back in a larger group ..I think mine was a light pink Wehrmacht or Luftwaffe translator... Billbert

ps pulling it out of a vet stash doesnt hurt either...

[RobertE]

Thanks for taking the time to comment, folks, from both sides of the discussion. I really appreciate the time taken to think this one through, and the open discussion. Juoneen, the material on the first is a synthetic silk or nylon, and the second a very tight linen or waxed fabric. I don't know the purpose of the number, but I do not believe the number was a Soldbuch number or Wehrpass number. I think it was a unit property stamp, or organizational serialized number for someone to where during assigned duties.

regards, Robert

[CurtD]

Well, if faked in the 70's, what was it copied from? I think Robert E's type band.
Only other option is a complete fantasy. I believe Robert's band is a righteous piece. Just my opinion.

Maybe from the cigarette card in post #29.