...and unquestionably thee most famous period (SS) Hilfspolizei photo of them all (just look at the intensity in that Hunds eyes)...
"Hundestaffel"
"Hundestaffel"
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I think Hundestaffel introduced photos of the most documented use of the Hilfspolizei armbands. These were introduced by Goring in Prussia early February 1933 to bring in extra men to wipe out the Communist opposition. It lasted until August 1933. These armbands were authorized for men to assist the local Revierpolizei as shown in the above photos. Examples in collections show local Prussian/Nazi Police Praesidium stamps as that is the level at which they were issued. So I think we are ruling out your armband as of that period.
So whether the Gestapo authorized auxilliaries to assist only them is the question. The stamp itself indicating the Geheime Staatspolizei/ Geheimes Staatspolizeiamt is problematic for me as it doesn't really indicate any specific authority. The Staatspolizeiamt was the main office in Berlin back in the pre-1936 days. But Geheime Staatspolizei/Geheime Staatspolizeiamt doesn't mean anything. Besides, auxilliaries were given brassards during the war and these were titled Im dienste der Sicherheitspolizei.Comment
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Thankx for the info. JoeW - yes, those photos I posted were basically for an "in use" visual only, the images presented having absolutely NO association / connection with the armband in question that started this thread....
At any rate, while I definitely do echo the sentiments and concerns expressed in this thread in regards to the originality of the item in question, I would also like to add (as noted previously by Bob Coleman) that it is nice to see this thread stay civil and not fueled / ruined by emotions....
"Hundestaffel"Last edited by Hundestaffel; 06-08-2011, 03:05 PM.Comment
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As Joe has already asked, would the Gestapo, as a plain clothed police force, require Hilfspolizei?
If plain clothed police were short staffed and required auxilliaries, their numbers were usually augmented by Kriminalgehilfe, who had been used to augment plain clothed police since the 1920's?
Also, the title of Kriminalgehilfe was replaced in around 1935/6 by Kriminal Angestellten. It must also be noted that some Kriminal Angestellten were far from just office clerks and some were in fact given executive employee status and issued with Gestapo/Kripo Dienstausweis and Dienstmarken and authorized to carry weapons.
Again, like others, the stamp sits uncomfortable with me.
The stamp I would expect to see for this time frame would be more like the following;Last edited by SiPo; 06-08-2011, 04:17 PM.Comment
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See post #16 ................Originally posted by g hanson View Post
The band is a purile fantasy.
Sorry, but it's as simple as that.
Katie.Comment
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Katie, you can be rest assured that I can read and I did actually read your post so you can bang your red face against as many brick walls as you like.
Secondly, rather than just blurt out an opinion as to the items authenticity, I attempted to offer some factual and historical background so that others who may not be as obvious an expert as yourself, can form their own opinion.
So, if you look at my post I actually explain why plain clothed police, of which the Gestapo were, would not use Hilfspolizei!
It's as simple as that.
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So .............. was I right, or was I right?Originally posted by g hanson View PostKatie, you can be rest assured that I can read and I did actually read your post so you can bang your red face against as many brick walls as you like.
Secondly, rather than just blurt out an opinion as to the items authenticity, I attempted to offer some factual and historical background so that others who may not be as obvious an expert as yourself, can form their own opinion.
So, if you look at my post I actually explain why plain clothed police, of which the Gestapo were, would not use Hilfspolizei!
It's as simple as that.
No need to get all hot and bothered.
We are both in agreement here.
The band is a wrong 'un.Comment
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Let me see if I can present a different perspective on this: provinence. There are some interesting points brought up about our understanding of regulations and styles of armbands, and whether they would be worn, and is so, by whom when the organization's agents wore plainclothes.
Can't answer that. I can tell you that it came in this group, which was mainly SS and SD. Once of the artificial silk "Im dienste der Sicherheitspolizei" was in fact in the group. Here's what it looked like:Comment
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You can see the armband type being discussed, as well as the green SD type. Unless someone inserted one (1) replica piece into this veteran stash in 2006, and then released another one last month, then this is a good piece. That is pretty good provinence to me.
As far as the stamp on the front, it isn't a stamp. That poorly inked stamp in on the back of the piece - here it is.Comment
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I know veteran hauls used to carry weight, and not so anymore. That's fine. I would suggest considering where this came from, though, before dismissing it.
Does anyone think they really have got a solid enough feel for wartime Gestapo uniform practices in all occupied countriess to make a call on this? Are we really comfortable enough with our knowledge base to decide this is bad, based on our fleeting understanding of inking?
I think we all understand that Gestapo agents and officials didn't wear these. But what did people is Gestapo archives wear when going into translate local documents and process paperwork? ID papers good enough, or maybe something like this? How many people worked behind the scenes in every Gestapo headquarters from Paris is Kiev (1000's?) - does anyone have an inkling what the actual regs were in those offices? Not what we think they wore, but what ALL the identification and badging may have been for these people?Last edited by RobertE; 06-08-2011, 08:13 PM.Comment
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The armbands shown as fakes, and the dozens more that exist, exist in abundance - many of them were made by the fakers. As Bob mentioned, some experienced collectors have commented, some of whom I know specialize in Gestapo / SD. So in all the collective years of collecting, has anyone seen one of these?
I doubt it. This came from an SS and security-heavy veteran haul; most of it was thown in including this armband (and the green one, and the collar tabs, and...).
Our logic about what could and couldn't be for a plain clothes outfit that was secretive enough that even their primary agent ID - which were pretty uniform - still evoke firestorms of discussion (see the disk I found in discussion - took tons of back in forth before Don Bible's in hand inspection gave it a thumbs up). What we don't know is pretty significant.
When all's said and done, I've done my bit. Based on where it came from, I have indeed posted a genuine Gestapo armband and hopefully collectors will not pass by one of these if they have a chance to get one. If the bulk of the community are scared of these, than hopefully it will make it easier for me to scoop up the next one - if I live that long! Win - win!
regards, Robert
P.S. Some collectors put real thought into their discussion points, all of which merits consideration.Comment
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"Gestapo uniform practices in all occupied countries" would be the SD, and they didn't wore everything according to the dress regulations.
Check out the small Sackenreuther group, document:
Der Komandeur
des Einsatzkommandos 6
der Sicherheitspolizei
und des SD
stamped Geheime Staatspolizei ...
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Sorry Robert, I must not understand what you're saying. You're not suggestion the SD represented the Gestapo in all foreign countries, at all stations?
The Gestapo had the following departments and representation. Note the ones for occupied territories, notably D:
Department A (Enemies)- Communists (A1)
- Counter Sabotage (A2)
- Reactionaries and Liberals (A3)
- Assassinations (A4)
- Catholics (B1)
- Protestants (B2)
- Freemasons (B3)
- Jews (B4)
The central administrative office of the Gestapo, responsible for card files of all personnel including all officials.
Department D (Occupied Territories)
A repeat of departments A and B for use outside the Reich.- Opponents of the Regime (D1)
- Churches and Sects (D2)
- In the Reich (E1)
- Policy Formation (E2)
- In the West (E3)
- In Scandinavia (E4)
- In the East (E5)
- In the South (E6)
Last edited by RobertE; 06-08-2011, 09:07 PM.Comment
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...and yes, they certainly were in the einsatzgruppen and the foreign concentration camps, as well as offices across the occupied territories.
I'm not talking about ones wearing field grey though, but I'm suggesting maybe we don't know all of the ID items worn by any of the behind-the-scenes bureaucrats and clerical workers.
Look through the police threads - plenty of stamps for Gestapo. Including the one on the back of mine, which is illegible but clearly not the same as the roller printed one on the front. I acknowledge other forms of Gestapo stamps exist.Comment
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the SD was as well working or partly working for the Gestapo. Like in the Sackenreuther case he was a gas van driver in the Ukraine, from the Gestapo Nuremberg.
In most cases they didn't like to show much insignias ... to many where behind them.Comment
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