SS visor eagle & skull in SILVER

[bwanek1]

I know (based on the photo/ measurments) that the shown example above is 100% legit, because it is exactly the same dimensions, detail, and manufacture as mine which is original. Anything else you would like?

This level of amaturish analysis, which in actuality displays no real analysis or credible level of expertise at all, is exactly what I expected from you. You did not disappoint.

Incidentally, if yours is, in fact, identical with the one Bob posted, that is more likely a negative than a positive. Considering we are talking, in this case, about individual, unique items made specifically for single customer by a private jeweler, you would expect variation between each jeweler. Unless your two skulls happened to have been made by the exact same jeweler (tough odds), there should be differences. Identicality comes from mass production.

I see by your comments that you agree that the one posted is original, therefore the post has been answered. End of discussion.

Hardly. I made no comment whatsoever (yet) regarding my assessment of this skull. In fact, I was careful not to make any comment indicating my thoughts before you had the opportunity to show your expertise (or lack of it), which you succeeded in doing.

In actuality, I see some strengths in the one Bob posted over the other silver insignia I have seen previously. I also see some elements which cause me to question its originality to period. I will address those in detail in another posting to keep that technical assessment seperate from my personal "interaction" with you to avoid confusion.<!-- / message -->

I would never put money or faith into a person you acknowledge has never claimed to be an expert.

Don't confuse humility (something you would likely not recognize) and a sensible recognition of the fact that none of us possesses perfect expertise with any statement on my part that I do not possess a healthy amount of knowledge and expertise, particularly in the area of SS metal cap insignia. If others wish to label me an expert, that is up to them. Whether I am deserving of such a lofty label or not, you have demonstrated time and again that you are considerably further from it than am I.

Everyone gets luck once in a while.

I guess your time is still coming, because you haven't been right on this forum once yet.

He has limited knowledge in the subject, its fairly obvious.

This one actually made me laugh out loud. The irony of you making such a comment directed toward me is priceless.

[bwanek1]

Well, we've been here before haven't we, many times. I think this was the most interesting thread I've read about the subject so far though.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=147839

Let’s be clear. There are actually two different propositions regarding the possibility of solid silver SS cap insignia having been produced during the Third Reich.

<O</OThe first possibility is that there was a period during which solid silver insignia were actually mass produced (though on a considerably smaller scale than standard insignia) under the authority and control of the RZM as an optional purchase item. The other thread, to which you are referring, dealt with that topic in some detail and brought some very good historical evidence to light which, depending on one’s interpretation, could be argued to substantiate this assertion.

<O</OThe second possibility is that solid silver insignia were produced by private jewelers on a made-to-order basis as non-official insignia for individual officers. This is the assertion being discussed in this thread and I believe that these two discussions (both very valid and both very different) should be continued separately from each other to avoid confusion.<O</O

[Bob Hritz]

Does anyone have the 1934 through 1937 SS Pricelists? In the 1938 Pricelist, the sale of SS eagle and skull is not annotated with any variants as to metal composition and finish. The only listing is for the eagle (.25 Mark) and skull (.10 Mark) for the BLACK service hat. The skull bottons (.05 Mark) are offered for both the black and gray field caps.

I do not know if the 800 skull I posted is original or not. I just asked several knowledgeable dealers if they had any, and Stephen Wolfe was kind enough to express this skull off to me. The other silver skull I know of is in David Delich's collection on an Allgemeine-SS NCO visor hat. Years ago (late 1960s, I believe) Bob Coleman had a black officer hat with silver insignia and a black NCO leather band. It was of the highest quality. I will check with Frank Thayer and see if he has any.

Many years ago, also in the 1960s, I had a silver eagle, but never owned a silver skull.

Bob Hritz

[derek]

Good heavens,
Five pages of invective and no solid information whatsoever!
Mr. Hritz, in answer to your request here is the metal badge section of the first SS price list (1934). Although it mentions a real silver National emblem unfortunately it's impossible to tell what the badge is. The subsequent listing of a cap badge suggests it might be a lapel badge that they are referring to.
By 1936 the badges for black caps and grey ones have the metal specified for the badges but silver isn't mentioned.
Derek

[bwanek1]

Does anyone have the 1934 through 1937 SS Pricelists? In the 1938 Pricelist, the sale of SS eagle and skull is not annotated with any variants as to metal composition and finish. The only listing is for the eagle (.25 Mark) and skull (.10 Mark) for the BLACK service hat. The skull bottons (.05 Mark) are offered for both the black and gray field caps.

Bob,

This is exactly what I was suggesting in post #62 that we avoid. Let's leave this thread to the discussion of private-purchase, jewler-made insignia and leave the other to officially sanctioned RZM insignia (reflected in the pricelist you are requesting). While both issues deal with assertions regarding solid silver insignia, they are diferent arguments with different issues. If we mix the two in the same thread, we are really going to confuse people.

Brad

[Bob Hritz]

My apologies, Brad. I will remove myself from the discussion. I have seen skulls I believe to be original, but cannot 'prove' it without having been there when they were made.

To each his own.

Bob Hritz

[bwanek1]

My apologies, Brad. I will remove myself from the discussion.

Bob,

I do not understand where that response came from. My suggestion was simply to keep the discussion of private purchase silver insignia (in this thread) separate from the discussion of RZM silver insignia (in the other thread) to avoid confusion.

I welcome your valuable input in both discussions. I don't know of anything I have said which would lead you to any other conclusion.

Brad

[JR.]

My 1st MAX show that I attended in St. Louis 1987, Ed Winn from PA sold me 2 sets of 800 marked Skull & Eagle SS headgear emblems. A year later in 1988 the 1st year that the MAX was held in Baltimore, Ed baby was still pumping these out. No doubt he knew the source that these were coming from at that time, and always had a good supply to fleece the next unsuspecting customer with. JR

[RUHL13]

So now the question is, if JR picked up a set 20 yrs. ago in 800 Silver and the dealer has another set a year later, how many did he sell with in that 1 year time frame? We all know how silver reacts in time, and Jewlers, who can do exact detail, if there really good, I am not talking about run of the mill jewlers.
Skilled enough, with knowledge of TR regalia, detail, prices.
Is there any high ranking SS vets, still living today with any knowledge of availability of private purchase Solid Silver TK?
Would they know availability, RZM control, made in mass quantity, how many jewelers, did private jewelers put there OWN trademark on such pieces.
Believe me I know its a long shot, but it may shed some light.
And yes, asking a SS vet a question like this, is extremely out of the ordinary.
Chances are slim to none, its sounds ridiculous but sh*t, why not.
Regards,
Gary

[bwanek1]

Without commenting (yet) on any of the items shown in photos on this thread, I find it necessary to point out that fakes of SS insignia cast in silver have been around for a long time.

In addition to the other thread on this forum which deals with the possibility that silver SS insignia were actually authorized and controlled by the RZM for a period of time (I encourage everyone interested in this topic to read it and continue to add posts to that thread to further that valuable discussion as well), there is also an older thread on the GDC forum which deals with the possibility of private jeweler-made silver SS insignia (the topic of this thread).

Worthy of particular note from that GDC thread is a post by Jim Toncar in which he wrote:

"They where faking these silver fittings in the early 1960's I know for a fact two New York dealers ( send me a PM and I will give you there names ) that made batches of these 800 fine fittings. Just for your personal knowledge some of the best copies of SS hats where made from exsisting parts right after the war for GI's, that is why on some headgear they look right and yet certain parts cannot be explained ... I too saw hats in the early 1960's with these fittings " I definitely do not think they where real [now] but then I did [then]."

[25thlight]

Hello JR.,
I'm sure you know our friend and neighbor sells these as well.
These " 800 silver" cap sets seem to be more abundant than the issue pieces.
Eddie

[Dr. Strangelove]

Bwanek1 is simply the best with SS cap insignia. I am calling him an expert in this field. Anybody that disagrees needs to read all of his post. If you read his post and follow his analysis you simply cannot help but be impressed. He can really save your life on a hat!

[bwanek1]

This topic is worthy of serious discussion and I regret that this thread so quickly degenerated into a conflict involving personality differences. I imagine that there are several learned forum members who would have provided some great insights to this thread, but decided to remain silent, rather than become involved in the mudslinging. I will take my share of responsibility for that and I apologize for allowing myself to become drawn into that silliness. The following is my attempt to get this thread back on track and encourage others to join in a rational exchange on this topic.

<O</OOK, first and foremost, let’s be honest. If we are talking about a custom-made piece of insignia which was privately produced by a jeweler, iron-clad provenance would be required to truly eliminate any element of doubt about when it was made. The obvious fact is that a good jeweler today could make one in the exact same manner as one would have in 1938. Since we know this is precisely what has been going on since the 1960’s, there are countless varieties of reproduction silver SS insignia out there of various levels of quality, some of which are exceptionally good. Anyone who claims they can look at such a piece and conclusively determine originality based on appearance alone is a fool or a liar (or simply in self-denial and wants so badly to believe that he possesses something special that he is incapable of being objective).

<O</OI have yet to see a solid silver piece which I felt was unquestionably original. Yet, I acknowledge the possibility that silver insignia may have been made and I have seen some pieces which I could not rule out as possibly being original. Still, without solid provenance, the best we can ever hope to say about any such piece is that it could be original. To even say that, we would need to evaluate it in several ways to eliminate the reasonable doubts any sensible person should have with such a piece. I submit the following as an incomplete list of factors to consider in evaluating the dubiousness of a piece [keep in mind, this list is specific to silver custom-made insignia; such a list for evaluating silver RZM-controlled insignia—if there was such a thing—would be very different]:

<O</O1) WORKMANSHIP: The basic premise behind the assertion that TR jewelers were producing solid silver copies of standard SS cap insignia is that prominent (or simply egotistical) SS leaders were concerned with appearance and desired special insignia which reflected their status and importance. This is a reasonable premise and the basic concept is supported by the well documented purchase of privately tailored uniforms of better cut and higher quality fabric by many officers (not just very senior leaders), as well as the singular extreme examples of unique uniform items, such as Sepp Dietrich’s custom gold bullion sleeve eagles. Therefore, we must conclude that, if custom-made cap insignia were made for this highly discerning group, particularly the notable figures, they would be of appropriately high quality. A custom-made piece for such a customer would have been a high-end item made by a fine craftsman. The quality of workmanship for an item made for a notable senior leader would be all the more superior (like the difference between a presentation dagger and a standard dagger). So, any piece of cast silver insignia, which is of mediocre quality (a poorly detailed casting or one with imperfections, sloppily soldered pins, etc.), is likely a post-war fake.

<O</O2) MATERIAL: Similar to the workmanship employed, a jeweler making a custom piece would use quality materials. Just because a piece is marked “800” does not mean that is what it is made of. Fakes are frequently made with far less silver content (or even no silver whatsoever) and then stamped “800” to deceive. The silver content of a piece can be chemically tested, but this is costly and damaging to the piece and, since it cannot prove originality conclusively, is probably not advisable. However, items made of fine silver (.800 or above) do look different than do those made with less silver content when new. Moreover, they age differently. Fine silver takes on a bluish/purplish patina which lesser alloys do not. So, any piece which is marked with a high silver content mark, but which does not have the characteristic look of aged fine silver should be considered highly suspect.

<O</O3) HARDWARE: In addition to using quality material as the base metal for the casting, a jeweler making a high-end piece of insignia for a discerning customer would complete the piece using good quality pins, just as he would if he were making any other piece of men’s jewelry. You won’t turn over any piece of custom jewelry and expect to find a cheap pin sloppily soldered to the back. Just like the overall quality of the material and workmanship employed in the production of the casting should be of high quality, so should the hardware and workmanship used to finish the pin be of high quality. It is reasonable that a jeweler might have chosen to remove the pins from the original piece of RZM insignia from which he made his silver casting for reuse on his finished product. In such a case, you would still expect these reused factory pins to be neatly and professionally attached with the attention to detail which a jeweler would employ. So, any piece with cheap-looking pins and/or pins which have been attached poorly or in a manner not fitting that of a jeweler should be considered highly suspect.

<O</O4) UNIQUENESS: A jeweler in 1938 would, just as one would today if asked to make a precious metal copy of some piece of US military standard issue insignia, likely have made his casting from an original piece of officially licensed insignia for obvious reasons of economy, expediency, and accuracy. It is highly unlikely that any jeweler would have gone to the considerable additional time and effort and the significantly higher expense of creating a unique skull design when he could make a detailed and accurate casting immediately from a piece of existing RZM insignia for only a few pfennigs. So, if you have a piece of cast silver insignia with a unique design or one with features which do not match an original RZM pattern, it is likely a post-war fake.

<O</O5) MAKER MARKINGS: A jeweler in the Third Reich who made his casting from an original piece of RZM licensed insignia would likely have removed the RZM mark and the original maker’s contract number from his copy for legal reasons. For an unlicensed firm to make and sell unauthorized insignia would already be [technically] illegal, but it would, if done on a small scale exclusively for high-ranking individuals, be overlooked. However, to make and sell something with someone else’s maker’s mark and/or an unapproved RZM marking would be forgery and no jeweler would like to open himself to the additional legal trouble of being accused of committing a fraud. [Again, I remind you to keep in mind that we are talking exclusively about jewler-made copies here; the issue of proper markings would be entirely different if we were talking about silver SS insignia produced under the control of the RZM] So, if you have a piece of cast silver insignia which was supposedly a private jeweler’s copy but still has a different licensed manufacturer’s markings and/or the RZM symbol, it is likely a post-war fake.

<O</OLike I said, this list is incomplete. It simply represents some of my thoughts as to how I would critically assess a piece of silver SS insignia which was supposedly privately made during the Third Reich. I used these when evaluating the photos posted in this thread. Some faired well, others did not IMHO.

<O</OI welcome others’ thoughts (if presented in a courteous manner, as will attempt to do as well).

[Anders S]

I might be way out of line here, but wouldn't the jeweler had marked this custom made skull with his own stamps, as well as the 800, 900 stamp?

Just a thought.

[bwanek1]

I might be way out of line here, but wouldn't the jeweler had marked this custom made skull with his own stamps, as well as the 800, 900 stamp?

Just a thought.

Quite possibly. However, I think it somewhat more likely that he would have wished to avoid putting a distinguishing mark on an item which was technically illegal for him to produce if he was not under contract with the RZM. This is all conjecture, so my opinion is just that.