Der Führer collar tab

[Felix]

"Here is another repro of the Der Fuhrer tab in the same style as the one that started the thread and as the other examples posted and commented on.

Sorry for the small pic but thats all I got."


//Felix

Felix,

The tab that I posted and your example of a repro are not the same. Print them both and you will see the difference. The runes are closer together on mine and the 3 is different and further below the rune. It also has an original code B RZM tag.
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I am sorry.
I forgot to mention that the tab you posted was excluded. That is a different tab and I am sorry to say not original. Not even close.

//Felix

[Dan M]

Felix,

If your saying that the tab that I posted is bad, I assume you must have a vet connected original to compare it to. So please post it. Thank you.

[Naval Enigma]

Felix,

If your saying that the tab that I posted is bad, I assume you must have a vet connected original to compare it to. So please post it. Thank you.

Hi Dan,

One of the worst feelings is being saddled with a fake. Your stomach just drops.

I am not qualified to comment on your tab.

But I would listen to the people commenting in this thread, some of them are the most knowledgeable SS insignia collectors in the field.

I understand the importance of veteran connections to an artifact. But if the artifact was made after the veteran's service, that is a problem. There have been instances of veterans purchasing repros at gunshows, post May '45 items being given to veterans by buddies or family. Those sorts of things happen.

Some fakes are simple reproductions for reenactors, films, etc.

Some fakes are made of rare badges with the intent to fool even advanced collectors. They are often made with period materials cannibalized from non-ss insignia.

Numbered and lettered rune tabs are up there price wise where a lot of craftiness and time can pay off.

Let the guys here make there case. This kind of thread is why I am on the board, I am learning, I hope we all are.


Naval Enigma

[Dan M]

Thank you, Naval Enigma for your post. I, however, will remain unconvinced that the tab I posted is a definite fake. If it were a dealer or collector purchase I would have some doubts. Experts have dubbed fakes original and vise versa. I am not an expert by any means but know the history of this item and the others purchased from the same source. My apologies to Stengard who started this thread for taking it off course.

Thank You.

[NickG]

This turned into a great educative thread, its unfortunate that it means bad news for some contributors...
These "made to fool" tabs are scary and adding real RZM tags makes it even more tricky and this hobby more dangerous.
A true mine field !
I 've been taught a lot here and the lessen learned is that you have to remain very cautious when considering such (early) tabs,
that's for sure! I just wanted to thank the knowledgeable experts here for sharing their expertise!
Scary hobby but I am not discouraged, I am going to stick with collecting later Dachau pattern foreign volunteer tabs...
not as rare.... but a much saver bet!

[Arran]

Hi Dan,
would you be willing to post clear front and back pics of your tab?

[DaveJ]

Jim,
What about this one,
V/R
DAve

[DaveJ]

reverse

[Felix]

Here is another reproduction SS 3 tab that has been around for a while.

//Felix

[dhcoleterracina]

As long as we're all posting questionable "3's", here's one I've had since the 70's.I posted it with the saltiest tab in existence for comparison. When I posted it, a very knowledgeable collector felt it was bad. It still was a lot of work to do on a fake back then. I reluctantly accept that opinion.

[Dan M]

"Hi Dan,
would you be willing to post clear front and back pics of your tab? "

Here are somewhat better pics of my tab along with a set of cut insignia that came from the same footlocker. Since the runes on my tab have been deemed questionable, I am posting the cut SS patch as the runes on both are the same except for wear. The SS3 patch is woven with a pearly grey thread-very tight. The buckram that I can see from the missing part of the RZM tag is shellacked. And for the folks who rely on the blacklight, nothing glows. Thank you.

[Dan M]

back

[Hohenstaufen]

Dan and Dan,

Thanks for posting pictures of your tabs. I completely understand your position and frustration upon hearing about your tabs. Trust me when I say this, none of us enjoys being the bearer of bad news, especially when it comes to authenticating something for someone. When you post something here on the forum, then you are opening up the door for criticism, wether it is a positive or negitive one. There have been numorous times in different threads, where individuals, who, by the way, have no expirence of what they are looking at, will often make rash determinations, positive or negitive, and can show no proof to stand behind their comments. These are the type of comments which leads to false hope or can cause damaging effects, which the forum can do without. Do I consider myself an expert ? No, not by any means, and I am always learning. I will say, that I have been very blessed with the opportunity to acquire original items for my collection and have been able to hold and study original material in my hands from other prestigious collections over the course of many, many, years. Due to this comes expirence.

I have done several hotel buys over the years, which used to be an excellent source of getting original material. From my own expirence, things have been brought in by the actual veteran, and they are complete fakes. How they acquired them, who knows, but there is a good rule that you have to go by. The item(s) have to stand on there own merit. You don't buy the story. The only time that I would buy into the story, is if, the item was 100% textbook original and I am seeking an affidavit, from the veteran, to go with the item.

After everything that is said and done on the forum and you still feel confident that you item(s) are original, then I would suggest that you take the item and put it away in a box. Maybe, someday photographic evidence will surface, which will justify your piece. For example, at this years MAX show, I was shown a early SS photograph of a flagbearer wearing a very strange Gorget, that I would have never imagined to exist, nor would I have ever thought to be real if I saw it for sale on someone's table, but the photograph said it all.

Wisches, I know that you would like for me or others to post pictures of original examples to compare to, but unfortunately I can not and will not do this. I know that you are probably thinking " Wow, this is a catch 22 situation" . On one hand you are saying that the tabs are bad, but on the other hand, you will not show or tell us why they are bad, correct? If so, the reason being is this, as everyone knows or suspects, the fakers who are making these tabs, probably look and/or read these forum threads everyday, looking for just the opportunity to see what they can improve on. I would like to help you gain knowledge on the subject at hand, but due to the current situation, I cannot afford to take the risk with my investment of my collection. Hence, the reason that there hasn't been another SS Cloth Insignia book surface, since the one that Angola put out in the 70's and 80's. The bullion tabs are getting really good and the machine cotton tabs are getting better, than what they used to be, probably due to what has already been disclosed on past threads. Once again, I cannot afford the risk of my investment! I hope that you understand with my decision. Grant.

[Dan M]

If all any can say is that the fakers are putting real Rzm tags on patches to say that a tab I have shown is fake or it's not textbook that is not good enough. I have Angolia's textbook if that is what is referred to. I found one picture, front only and blurry of an enlisted tab on pg 298 second edition.If there is another texbook that shows all the known examples of original numbered tabs I would like to know about it. I listed a point by point reason and an example of what I believed to show this tab as original including runes matching an original cut off SS tab. I don't think there is enough evidence to say that this tab is fake. Like other SS insignia, there is more than one style or maker. As you said, Grant , new varieties are turning up. Unfortunately, I'm still left in the dark as to exactly what is not correct with this tab. No fakes of this tab have been shown to my knowledge.

[Felix]

If all any can say is that the fakers are putting real Rzm tags on patches to say that a tab I have shown is fake or it's not textbook that is not good enough. I have Angolia's textbook if that is what is referred to. I found one picture, front only and blurry of an enlisted tab on pg 298 second edition.If there is another texbook that shows all the known examples of original numbered tabs I would like to know about it. I listed a point by point reason and an example of what I believed to show this tab as original including runes matching an original cut off SS tab. I don't think there is enough evidence to say that this tab is fake. Like other SS insignia, there is more than one style or maker. As you said, Grant , new varieties are turning up. Unfortunately, I'm still left in the dark as to exactly what is not correct with this tab. No fakes of this tab have been shown to my knowledge.

Grant;
Some good conclusions posted by you.

Dan;
You have only gotten my negative comments about your SS3 collar tab so far. You should perhaps wait for other collectors to give their opinion as I am no expert either. I have done quite a lot of homework though and stand by my opinion. Unless I would have felt sure about my verdict I would not have commented. It is however my opinion and others might feel different.
I almost start to feel bad that I give you negative feedback. I want you to know that I do it to help you by giving my opinions. This is what we do on this foum. Memebers who have studied their hobby and gained insight about what originals look like and what can differ them from fakes are happy to share their knowledge. A number of members has stopped to give detailed information and some members chose only to give a short comment; Fake. Original or " I could entertain doubts" Those who comment do have the right not to explain all the details about what makes items good or bad. It is frustrating to a lot of people and I do agree. One the other hand could we always demand that a person with knowledge explain in fine details, showing photos and own insignias as comparison and taking a lot of time over and over again to explain the same things, year after year?
Would it improve the sitiation if collectors instead would keep silent if they wont give the full explaination?
What does it give in return to those experienced collectors who chose to comment? Certainly a lot of pleasure by helping others which we all should be greatful for. Besides that? A lot of time spent that could be used for other purposes.
This is a non profit help station that will help you save a lot of money in the end if you are willing to learn and to listen.

One has to hang around on the forum and learn which guys have the knowledge and who does not. I have been a member here for + 7 years and rather active. Before that I was "only" a viewer. I have learned a lot, much more than from any book, and I have learned who has the knowledge about certain items. I have also gotten contact with some of the best in the collecting world and learned even more.

The best option is of course to become your own "expert". That does however take several thousands of hours to cover an area like SS cloth insignia. Even after that you wont be any complete master of the subject. To specialize in certain areas like SS VT collar tabs requires special studies about them. It is of course a vital part to handle originals and study them in to detail, feel them and smell them.

To help-it-yourself there is a good search function on this forum. God knows how many hours I have spent looking for information.
The information you need about how verified original SS3 collars tabs look like can be found by using the search function on this forum. It can also be found in some books.

To claim a version of a collar tab or any other insignia is original when is vastly differs from verified original patterns places the burden of proof in your hands. Why is it original? That is very good way to think if you want to end up with a collection of original militaria. Stick to what can be verified as originals and sleep comfy at night. Do not waste time with items that are questionable unless youre a gambler. Gamblers win or lose. In the SS game gamblers will in most cases be loosers. Sure, you can end up with an original, but it is worth the risk? I would say not, unless you are very skilled. Few of us are. Better safe than sorry.
What if you have found them in a vet find? Then you must really know the source is true. That means 110 % sure! Nothing less! As said above, most experienced collectors would need to verify the pieces as originals any way. This is one needs to do as the fakes have been around for a number of years and are getting better and better. It is a survival strategy.

The SS3 tab in Angolias book you refer to looks like an original and nothing like the one you posted. I wont comment on your "cut off" SS rune tab because I have already comented enough.

Cheers and happy collecting
//Felix