First Pattern LAH

[wewelsburg]

I realize that it's not my business but the business of the moderators,but this is the second thread Ive read tonite where Felix and Peter Manzie have bickered back and forth and its getting tiring,it contributes nothing to the thread and its wasting our time as paying members here.Sorry to be the one to say it but its getting old fast.
Other thread,a nightmare:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=399109

[Gary Symonds]

First Pattern LAH

Gentlemen:
This is NOT a RZM cuff band. The first pattern LAH existed for one year only; 1933-1934, prior to RZM controls and was superceded by the second pattern, which was RZM manufactered. This cuff band was the model for subsequent SS cuff bands. As you dagger collectors know, when the RZM took control of SA/SS daggers, there was a lessening of quality. The fittings went from nickel silver, to plated pot metal. Many cutlery makers dropped out rather than cheapen their wares. I believe that something similar occured with cuffbands, The cuff band posted has more quality attributes than the subsequent RZM productions. For instance:
I would point out that this machine embroidered cuffband has the black, cheese cloth reinforcing panel, plus a black cloth cover to protect the embroidery. Something that the RZM machine embrodiered bands lacked, but were on hand embroidered examples only with few exceptions. The slight difference between the one I have posted and the one in the book, could be attributed to a different mill or setting on the machine. I will not get into a long thread on this, and leave the above comments for some thought.

[NickG]

Gentlemen:
This is NOT a RZM cuff band. The first pattern LAH existed for one year only; 1933-1934, prior to RZM controls and was superceded by the second pattern, which was RZM manufactered. This cuff band was the model for subsequent SS cuff bands. As you dagger collectors know, when the RZM took control of SA/SS daggers, there was a lessening of quality. The fittings went from nickel silver, to plated pot metal. Many cutlery makers dropped out rather than cheapen their wares. I believe that something similar occured with cuffbands, The cuff band posted has more quality attributes than the subsequent RZM productions.

That's an interesting theory however that "early" LSAH cuff title still looks artificially aged to me...

[Gary Symonds]

That's an interesting theory however that "early" LSAH cuff title still looks artificially aged to me...

Food for thought? How did the faker age only the obverse letters and not have the dye or whatever was used, not permeate the reverse, which is a lighter color, considering that the textile used was either cotton or wool? Would it not go through the entire letter?

[NickG]

Food for thought? How did the faker age only the obverse letters and not have the dye or whatever was used, not permeate the reverse, which is a lighter color, considering that the textile used was either cotton or wool? Would it not go through the entire letter?

You can easily stain something without it penetrating... This "early" cuff title is in unissued full length condition...but looks used/abused...
It was definately not handled with white gloves! That's for sure...
Who knows?

[Felix]

Gentlemen:
This is NOT a RZM cuff band. The first pattern LAH existed for one year only; 1933-1934, prior to RZM controls and was superceded by the second pattern, which was RZM manufactered. This cuff band was the model for subsequent SS cuff bands. As you dagger collectors know, when the RZM took control of SA/SS daggers, there was a lessening of quality. The fittings went from nickel silver, to plated pot metal. Many cutlery makers dropped out rather than cheapen their wares. I believe that something similar occured with cuffbands, The cuff band posted has more quality attributes than the subsequent RZM productions. For instance:
I would point out that this machine embroidered cuffband has the black, cheese cloth reinforcing panel, plus a black cloth cover to protect the embroidery. Something that the RZM machine embrodiered bands lacked, but were on hand embroidered examples only with few exceptions. The slight difference between the one I have posted and the one in the book, could be attributed to a different mill or setting on the machine. I will not get into a long thread on this, and leave the above comments for some thought.

I do not mean to insult you, and I am sure your intentions are good.
However IMO the cuff title you show is 100% reproduction and it is very easy to tell so. Even if an early cuff title it matches no known original patterns. It clearly shows a weave pattern that is found on many reproductions.
The embroidery and the fake aging should bring you even more big red warning flags.

Chers,
Felix

[Gary Symonds]

Felix:
Please post a picture of an original first pattern LAH in your collection, so that we can all learn.

[Robert H]

open the right book and u will find the right look for such a title.
This one is a copy, I call them vice aged copy's as they are pressed to look even older as they are. I have seen some other ones with different lettering as well over the last some years.

The quality of the forum makes lately 5 steps down with all this worthless proving requests.
Everybody can make his own homework as others do and did. From nothing comes nothing ...

[Felix]

Felix:
Please post a picture of an original first pattern LAH in your collection, so that we can all learn.

I am sorry to say that I do not collect LAH at all.
I collect SS VT as in Deutschland, Germania and Der Fuhrer and Das Reich, Nordland and Wiking.

I see that you do not like my opinion about your cuff title.

I will say like this;
Please be happy with your cuff title. It is you who should be happy with what you collect. That is all what matters. If you believe in it, please continue to do so.

Cheers,
Felix

[Gary Symonds]

open the right book and u will find the right look for such a title.
This one is a copy, I call them vice aged copy's as they are pressed to look even older as they are. I have seen some other ones with different lettering as well over the last some years.

The quality of the forum makes lately 5 steps down with all this worthless proving requests.
Everybody can make his own homework as others do and did. From nothing comes nothing ...

There are only three books with pictures of this cuff band; Angolia, Williamson, and Cook & Bender. Other than a slight difference in the embroidery, the one I posted is the same. If you have other pictures of this very rare cuff band, why don't you post them for education value? If you have pictures or examples in your collection of artificially aged cuff bands, by all means post them for the same reasons. To tell us that to demand evidence to back up an opinion is "worthless proving requests", is nonsense. A "forum" is supposed to be a give and take with opinions backed by evidence. If you have evidence, post it. So far I see none. I showed you mine, let us see yours.

[Dmv]

Don't forget Ulrich of Englands books! I think they very well display original vs. reproduction cuff bands.

But... what's that thing between Felix and Peter? I know it is off topic, but by posting those reactions in public, you make people (me) curious, although none of my business ofcourse and sure don't want to get infolved.

[Gary Symonds]

Don't forget Ulrich of Englands books! I think they very well display original vs. reproduction cuff bands.

But... what's that thing between Felix and Peter? I know it is off topic, but by posting those reactions in public, you make people (me) curious, although none of my business ofcourse and sure don't want to get infolved.

Ulrich of England in his excellent two editions of cuff bands, does not treat us to a picture of a first pattern LAH. What is wrong about posting "these reactions in public"? This is what the "forum" is designed for, last time I checked.

[Matthew S.]

Not even close. Look like burlap...

[dietrich1892]

Hello guys ! this cufftitle is NOT ORIGINAL, it's one of the older version of the copy's about this typ ! here in austria you can find them on some (how can i say in english??) flohmarkt ! sorry for my bad english and i hope you can understand me ! regards from austria, PETER

[Gary Symonds]

Hello guys ! this cufftitle is NOT ORIGINAL, it's one of the older version of the copy's about this typ ! here in austria you can find them on some (how can i say in english??) flohmarkt ! sorry for my bad english and i hope you can understand me ! regards from austria, PETER

Dietrich, You say these first pattern LAH repros are commonly available in Austria? Good! It would sure be of help if you can post a picture of the fake LAH cuffbands both front and back that are out there. This would be of benefit for all of us SS cuff band collectors to know what to look for. Could you please do us this service?