SS Cap

[bwanek1]

Well additional proof isn't needed, the pics speaks for themtselves.

I respectfully disagree. I think it hardly accurate to say that the convincing-looking aging of one skull as it appears in a couple photos is conclusive evidence by itself, which requires no further substantiation. I, for one, would like to know more about who is claiming to have found it and where. We have all seen very good artificial aging. For that matter, a reenactor's lost (or intentionally burried) insignia, which had been in the ground for only a few years could easily look many decades older.

I do not study identity discs and I have no basis for assessing the authenticity of the one below. However, it was recently posted on this forum to bad reviews, despite what looks to me like very similar aging.

Again, lest anyone misunderstand me, I am not declaring this TK a fake. I was, for many years, among those who believed this style of skull was original. Anecdotal evidence later pushed me into the camp of the doubters. Nonetheless, I keep an open mind and I welcome new evidence that these skulls are original. I would love for there to be solid evidence to put to rest this long-standing debate regarding the authenticity of such skulls. My point here is that the "age" seen in this photo is simply not enough. Beyond that, we have heard other vague claims that these skulls have been found in battlefield digs. However, none of those making such claims seem willing to back them up. I hope they do. I have no personal axe to grind with anyone (despite what you might think, Carlsson, that includes you); I just want the truth to come out for the benefit of us all.

[PMan]

Anecdotal evidence later pushed me into the camp of the doubters.

Interesting comparison. Is the disc real? Poor reviews, yes. what does all of that really prove.

Brad, can you please describe the "anecdotal evidence" that you received to push you into the doubters camp?

[bwanek1]

Interesting comparison. Is the disc real? Poor reviews, yes. what does all of that really prove.

It proves nothing, but, assuming they are correct that that disk with similar "aging" is fake, it is cause to doubt convincing-looking aging in seen on other items in photos and not accept it as absolute evidence of originality, which requires no further substantiation, as has been asserted here.

Brad, can you please describe the "anecdotal evidence" that you received to push you into the doubters camp?

Sure. It has been pointed out many times that the majority of such skulls found today are on the bogus Alteste caps. No one that I am aware of, on the other hand, has stated that they acquired such a skull directly from a vet. Neither of those facts by itself or together with eachother are conclusive, but they are cause for real skepticism. Additionally, there has been at least one story from a known and respected forum member who claimed to have seen a dealer of poor reputation with a "box full" of these skulls many years ago.

Like I said, I used to believe these were real, but my reasons for doing so were based in little fact. Chiefly, I, like others here, noted the similarity of the material and pin style to that of other late-war insignia. But that is really no true evidence to support this particular piece. It only suggests that such a design could have been used before the war's end. However, one could easily counter by pointing out that we have seen no SS eagles with such pins.

Separate from the anecdotal evidence, there is also the issue of design differences between this skull and known original Assmann skulls. The disign is too close to be from another (mystery) maker, yet distinctly different in several respects from all other Assmann skulls. That is curious.

Another cause of doubt are the skulls which had their edge-prongs removed and replaced with round, soldered pins, similar to those traditionally used by Assmann. That, too, is curious.

It was the combined effect of the anecdotal evidence and strange design differences, along with obvious attempts to modify such skulls for deception, which collectively tipped my scale toward the doubting side. However, I am far from convinced that these are absolutely fake and I welcome more evidence on either side of the discussion.

[PMan]

It proves nothing, but, assuming they are correct that that disk with similar "aging" is fake, it is cause to doubt convincing-looking aging in seen on other items in photos and not accept it as absolute evidence of originality, which requires no further substantiation, as has been asserted here.



Sure. It has been pointed out many times that the majority of such skulls found today are on the bogus Alteste caps. No one that I am aware of, on the other hand, has stated that they acquired such a skull directly from a vet. Neither of those facts by itself or together with eachother are conclusive, but they are cause for real skepticism. Additionally, there has been at least one story from a known and respected forum member who claimed to have seen a dealer of poor reputation with a "box full" of these skulls many years ago.

Like I said, I used to believe these were real, but my reasons for doing so were based in little fact. Chiefly, I, like others here, noted the similarity of the material and pin style to that of other late-war insignia. But that is really no true evidence to support this particular piece. It only suggests that such a design could have been used before the war's end. However, one could easily counter by pointing out that we have seen no SS eagles with such pins.

Separate from the anecdotal evidence, there is also the issue of design differences between this skull and known original Assmann skulls. The disign is too close to be from another (mystery) maker, yet distinctly different in several respects from all other Assmann skulls. That is curious.

Another cause of doubt are the skulls which had their edge-prongs removed and replaced with round, soldered pins, similar to those traditionally used by Assmann. That, too, is curious.

It was the combined effect of the anecdotal evidence and strange design differences, along with obvious attempts to modify such skulls for deception, which collectively tipped my scale toward the doubting side. However, I am far from convinced that these are absolutely fake and I welcome more evidence on either side of the discussion.

Brad,
Carlsson did state that along with his ground dug skull finds, an eagle of simlar pin construction was found as well. I have never seen one of those in hand. Your points above are well taken however.
I would like to ask another question; What is there to substantiate the actual use of the accepted Assman skull? We know it existed because of the catalog. We also know that Assman insignia was well distributed. Where are they in period photos??? Again I ask for any period photos of these in wear. Perhaps one of those images may reveal a 3 prong version closing the book on this matter forever.
Peter

[merdock]

I swear to god, I nearly got banned from this forum for a fraction of the sh!t you guys are throwing at each other now!

Grow up the lot of you!

The cap is fake, the 3 prong skull has yet to be proven as being either 100% fake or 100% real in any threads I've ever read. The rest is all BS.

Go and do something useful with your time like trying to prove it either way instead of bickering like a bunch school girls.

Well said Ben,at times it gets just a little personal on here.
Merdock

[BenVK]

Thanks mate!

I'd like to get something clear in my mind.
This ground dug 3 prong skull was discovered by carlsson1982, correct?

[BenVK]

If so, "carlsson1982" is actualy Michal aka "beaviso" who claimed right here in ths thread that his wife discovered it.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?p=2884383
Nothing personnal, just trying to understand the reason for all the smoke and mirrors.

[PMan]

If so, "carlsson1982" is actualy Michal aka "beaviso" who claimed right here in ths thread that his wife discovered it.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?p=2884383
Nothing personnal, just trying to understand the reason for all the smoke and mirrors.

Interesting to say the least. Hopefully Carlsson can explain this.

[Anders S]

If so, "carlsson1982" is actualy Michal aka "beaviso" who claimed right here in ths thread that his wife discovered it.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?p=2884383
Nothing personnal, just trying to understand the reason for all the smoke and mirrors.

Like I said I don't need to proof things to you or people like you
Iam glad to give more info on people who's really intrested

[BenVK]

Just my opinion, but this is what an Assmann skull would look like having been in the ground for nearly 70 years, even though this one has been cleaned after removal from the earth. I'm not and expert in this field but I would say that this example is remarkably well preserved. Now compare to the other one. I'll let you decide.

[carlsson1982]

Thanks mate!

I'd like to get something clear in my mind.
This ground dug 3 prong skull was discovered by carlsson1982, correct?

No, If you read the whole thread you'll find that i said "Here's pics from a ground dug one".
and I also said, that I don't have my pics anymore from the insignia that I dugged up because it was in very bad shape, and had no real value for me at that time.
Now Iam very angry that I don't have those pics anymore to show it here, but I'll find other ones an w when I do I'll show them back. But still they're will be always others to think that's It's artificial etc.
It will be VERY difficult to prove that through period photo's because you can't see the difference on a cap. Period pics are not in 300dpi. But I have my proof.

[Ian Hulley]

No, If you read the whole thread you'll find that i said "Here's pics from a ground dug one".

So, to clarify ... you've never been registered here as "beaviso" and you're not called Michal ? And you live in Europe, not Chicago ? You personally dug up a completely different but much more damaged 3 pronged skull but didn't bother to photograph this ground-breaking find ?

Ian

[bwanek1]

What is there to substantiate the actual use of the accepted Assman skull? We know it existed because of the catalog. We also know that Assman insignia was well distributed. Where are they in period photos??? Again I ask for any period photos of these in wear. Perhaps one of those images may reveal a 3 prong version closing the book on this matter forever.
Peter

For me, the biggest problem has always been the lack of any direct-vet-acquired examples of the three-pronged skulls. We have plenty of examples of other Assman skulls having come back with GIs, both on caps an loose, but I have never heard of anyone claiming to have acquired a three-pronged skull directly from a vet.

Even if these were a late-war production run which saw little widespread use, I would still expect to see unissued examples coming home with GIs. In that regard, they would be similar to the printed sleeve eagles. There was, until recently, no photographic evidence of them in use and many reasonably speculated that they were never issued. However plenty came home with vets, so we knew they were produced during the war. For that matter, there are all of the Dachau foreign volunteer insignia, which saw limited or no use of which we are aware, but still came back with returning vets as souvenirs. Therefore, if these skulls were produced in sufficient quantities to have found their way onto the battlefields of Europe, I would expect examples to have been found among GIs' souvenirs as well. However, to my knowledge, no one has ever found one in any direct-vet buy.

Therefore, though a photograph clearly showing one in use would certainly be indisputable evidence, I would settle for now with a couple respected collectors coming forth stating that they have had such skulls since the 60's and clearly remember having gotten them directly from vets.

Without that, and with the other "issues" surrounding these skulls, those making vague, unsubstantiated claims of having found one in a battlefield dig should not be surprised when others respond with legitimate skepticism.

[Ohlau]

but I have never heard of anyone claiming to have acquired a three-pronged skull directly from a vet.

And that is the main proof against orginality of 3 prongs skulls ?

I know beaviso from another Polish forum (www.odkrywca.pl), it's a well experienced researcher in work with metal detector. I don't want to be his personal lawyer, but I know he found many items (also SS items) in ex- 1945 battlefields in northern Poland. If I'm not wrong, this skull was found there. I saw his relic item and have no reason to don't trust in this story.

I'm sorry to say, but war was also in east and all war souvenirs only from GJ can't be only this right and true things, IMHO.

[carlsson1982]

So, to clarify ... you've never been registered here as "beaviso" and you're not called Michal ? And you live in Europe, not Chicago ? You personally dug up a completely different but much more damaged 3 pronged skull but didn't bother to photograph this ground-breaking find ?

Ian

that's correct, Iam not beaviso or whatever and I don't live in the Us not even near it.