SS Panzer Beret

[Richard P]

3.

[Richard P]

4.

[Richard P]

5.

[SJP]

OK. Please address me to the page where an absolutely original skull is depicted. I saw many skulls in the thread, but maybe I'm missing something, but nowhere did anyone say here is the "classic" early ss panzer skull. That you can say, "this is as good as it gets"! Which Pic, gentlemen, for my edification?

If you have a copy of Websters look up the defination of "dense"
__________________________________________________ _
Cheers Steve

[Gary Symonds]

ss beret

SJP:
That is a cogent answer. I'm sure that took a lot of "thought" as to my request for evidence to prove originality. Talk is cheap. This is supposed to be an intellectual discussion among serious collectors. Shame on you.

On the other hand, Richard P did provide pics of skulls he believed are real. Thank you Richard P! Comparing your examples and mine, the only difference that I can see is the embroidery on my skull is thicker and more closely embroidered, than on the examples depicted. Other than that, they are virtually identical, right down to the vertical black threads on the edges of the cross bones and the black threads defining the teeth. Your examples prove that my beret skull is original, and I will leave it at that. Thank you for the help.

[Arran]

SJP:
Your examples prove that my beret skull is original, and I will leave it at that. Thank you for the help.

The skull that started this thread is unquestionably a copy, simply based on the fact that it is hand embroidered. Originals were machine embroidered. The backing has been added to conceal the obvious give-aways on the reverse. Also, many of the people offering you opinions here have actually owned and collected originals, so you would be wise to heed their advise...

[Gary Symonds]

Arran:
It is machine enbroidered. The black threads may have been hand done. The skull is not done by hand. By the way, how many of these do you own?

[Arran]

Hi Matovsky,
I currently own none, but have owned 2 of these badges over the years. If you look behind the backing, it will prove that it is hand-sewn. I have a degree in textile conservation, so I know hand sewing even when it has been carefully done to deceive...

[Gary Symonds]

Hi Matovsky,
I currently own none, but have owned 2 of these badges over the years. If you look behind the backing, it will prove that it is hand-sewn. I have a degree in textile conservation, so I know hand sewing even when it has been carefully done to deceive...

In all due respect for your expertise, the skull shows no signs of hand work. It is typical machine embroidery. The black thread enhancements are probably hand done. In addition, where are the others? In 18 years of collecting, this is the only one I have ever seen. The faker is not going to make only one. How come when everybody was looking for either originals or repros at the 2008 SOS, per the long thread, nobody saw any, real or fake? This is simply too well made to be a reproduction.

[Richard P]

Hello Matovsky,

If you are happy with it, please enjoy it. Just do not be surprised if you go to sell it that you may have trouble finding someone to shell out the big bucks.

I will grant you that it is the best I have seen to date that I would consider fake in my opinion. I have to agree with Arran that it is hand embroidered. I do currently own two original examples of SS panzer beret skulls. I have extensively collected for 40 plus years and about 30 was spent collecting theater made US patches, especially the China Burma India theater. I can tell you which country the items were made in and whether it is original. I had hundreds and hundreds of patches and banners...still do have quite a few. Hand sewn, machine embroidered, cotton, silk, leather...canvas, airplane fabric, silk, bullion...you name it.

There is a prolific faker in California that has been hand embroidering WWI and WWII patches for almost 20 years. He buys old banners with bullion, silk, etc. and is highly practiced. Many swear his stuff is real and spend thousands on his wares.

I can spot his work in a heartbeat...yours, while probably not made by him, is hand embroidered, I guarantee it.

Richard

[B. N. Singer]

Gentlemen: Your opinion is sought.

Embroidery by hand or otherwise is of scant consequence, the insignia that originated this thread is NOT an Original, it is a very short story. If the owner will NOT accept that so be it. "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink".
B. N. Singer

[Gary Symonds]

Richard P:
Thank you for your observation. Even if it is hand embroidered, how does this make it a fake? I know that the only reference on the subject is Angolia's SS cloth book and he says these were machine embroidered only. However, none of us were alive as adults and privy to what was going on in the SS circa 1940. Why is it out of the question that such an insignia could have been done by hand? Is anyone aware of any rules prohibiting this? If an officer wanted to pay extra for hand work, would he have been arrested and taken to a concentration camp? The reason this is the best "fake" you have seen, is because it is original. This seems to be the trend in the forum; "if I have not seen it before, it must be fake", is the thinking I see all the time. Nobody can know everthing including forum members.

[Richard P]

Matovsky,

You are thinking logically about your insignia...which is fine.

I am just exercising my 40 plus years of experience, which is mine alone and it's my opinion alone. Your insignia is heavily padded and would have a large profile when mounted on a tam, especially with a matching eagle of like character. I have never seen a hand embroidered SS beret eagle that would match, which further colors my opinion.

I don't follow forum trends which you will see if you look at more of my old threads.

As I mentioned I not only study the real items, but the fakes. There is a guy that could turn you out an eagle to match your skull in the Sacramento area. I have a tendency not to trust an item that I know can be easily made.

Enjoy your skull. I will be the first to admit I was wrong if conclusive evidence comes to light that your skull is original. I will publicly apologize.

Richard

[Gary Symonds]

Richard P:
That is the problem, there is no "conclusive evidence" that is available 70 years after the event. Anyone who worked in the textile field or in the Panzer SS is long gone. All we have left is to judge the artifacts on their merits. Unlike some of our forum breathern, you at least can admit that you don't know everything. Thank you for that concession, I'm in the same boat, I certainly don't know everything, but I will admit it. How about posting some pics of a hand embroidered eagle, if available?

[Richard P]

Matovsky,

I have never seen any hand embroidered SS eagles outside of the bullion variety. I'm still waiting for Sepp Dietrich's SS beret to be sold with its gold bullion insignia. Oh wait...that is one of my fantasy items.

You could fill volumes with what I don't know. I have fairly narrow areas of interest these days.

If you want to discuss American Volunteer Group (Flying Tigers) items, then its hard to find anyone in the world who has owned, handled, and knows more about their uniforms and insignia, including the guys who have written the books, than me. BUT...it's mainly museums and dealers that find this info useful, there aren't enough collectors of original items to give much of a hoot.

If you locate any more SS beret insignia please post them.

Richard