Candleholder from SS Officer

[Michael Fay]

I'm curious. What do the repros look like? seperate .

some look like this

[Capt. R]

Michael,

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't part of that article assimilated into the current wikepedia write up?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julleuchter

Yes, I realize it's always prudent to be critical of the information found on wikipedia, but in this case, much of what has been discussed in this thread is mentioned here, including the description of the 'summit candle' and the 'under the tower' candle. There are also some relevant reproductions & fantasy pieces pictured, as well as some more archaic, pre-Third Reich period specimens.

Kris's site also reiterates some of this information, and expresses it eloquently here;

http://www.thirdreicharts.com/data/i...he+Julleuchter

Best,

B.A. Vierling

I would tend to agree with you Albrecht. The wikipedia article on the juleuchter is well-done and a good place to begin one's research. I think wikipedia is an excellent initial tool and resource for research into any field. Like anything on the internet, it should be taken with a grain of salt, but if it gets the creative juices flowing and prompts one to continue more in-depth study.....use it and enjoy it!

[Capt. R]

Michael, have a care with the Ulrich/Barger translation. I just was reading through the leuchter/candle pages and noticed a serious error of omission in their translation of the Julleuchter letter from Himmler on page 37. They quote in the third paragraph "The small candle will burn as a symbol of the ending year during its last hours." The large candle paragraph follows. This has been interpreted here as indicating the burnt down candle on top was replaced by a new one.

But looking at the copy of the orignal Himmler letter on page 38, one sees the third paragraph as "Das kleine Licht, das unter dem Leuchter steht, brenne als Sinnbild des zu Ende gehenden Jahres in seiner letzen Stunde."
It is obvious Ulrich/Berger omitted the clause that reads "...that stands under the lantern,...". There was a small candle that burned within the lantern and was to be symbolically replaced with the new one on top.

Now one must wonder about some of the other translation work in "The SS Family".

WOW. Joe, you really are a scholar! And you are brilliant for catching that error! So glad you studied and posted this, as we would not have known for sure about the official use but for your research! One error does not necessarily indicate a series of flaws in the translation, but it does bring pause. Thanks Joe for bringing it to our attention!!

[Michael Fay]

Michael, have a care with the Ulrich/Barger translation. I just was reading through the leuchter/candle pages and noticed a serious error of omission in their translation of the Julleuchter letter from Himmler on page 37. They quote in the third paragraph "The small candle will burn as a symbol of the ending year during its last hours." The large candle paragraph follows. This has been interpreted here as indicating the burnt down candle on top was replaced by a new one.

But looking at the copy of the orignal Himmler letter on page 38, one sees the third paragraph as "Das kleine Licht, das unter dem Leuchter steht, brenne als Sinnbild des zu Ende gehenden Jahres in seiner letzen Stunde."
It is obvious Ulrich/Berger omitted the clause that reads "...that stands under the lantern,...". There was a small candle that burned within the lantern and was to be symbolically replaced with the new one on top.

Now one must wonder about some of the other translation work in "The SS Family".

There is no doubt about it,
you are correct that the whole ganz buch is not to be fully trusted.{As you have carefully noted, I must add}
As you must know, but maybe others dont, there are many added additions to the translation ...extra photos, etc...and most definitely some things omitted... some for what appears to be appearance ...but others for what must have been their editorial call on what seemed less salient or interesting...
I do not know why, but I would have preferred no additions and absolutly NO omissions. Still I am glad it came out and that I have it to access quickly-and ever so much more trustworthy(even with its serious flaws) than wikipedia, for heaven's sake.
Michael

[Ron C.]

Julleuchter

Michael,

You asked about whether I thought it had been painted over. My wife dug both of the candleholders out, and I photographed them. Yes, I think it is likely both have been painted over with the darker material. I can see a long black paintbrush air in the finish...it looks like a crack in one of the photos, but it isn't it is a hair. There is a lot of scratching to some parts of the bottoms, but I can't make out the remnants of any marks that may have been scratched off. The finished must be fairly thick. Many of the design dots are very shallow now, and there is a heavy run of the finish, whatever it is, on one of the holders. One of them must have had a candle inside at one time, as it is blacked inside. I used them a little at the holidays, but I only had candles in the top and didn't really light them........so the wax is from other use. I am posting a bunch of pictures to try to show all sides of both holders. I thought they were both the same color, but, putting them side by side, I see they are slightly different in color.....one is taller..........not a real matched pair.

Do these help you tell any more about them......or in other words, are they just candleholders or what? Any opinion are welcomed.......have very little in them and I still like them. Now that they are dug out again I will use them to decorate my mantle........didn't have one before,,,,,,,they can join some of my beersteins.

Thanks,
Ron

[Michael Fay]

They are more than "just candlesticks." If as you say you got one of them from an elderly SS man in the 1970's then that one is at least from a SS veteran's supplier. At best ...well they could be from the TR era.
I am not an expert on fakes or authentic Jul-Leuchters...some look better than others to me.But it is only my personal feelings that to my eye- yours dont look like the modern made ones.

What is most important is that you know you recieved one from your elderly friend.
That in itself makes it more than just a candlestick-both as a sentimental gift and as having a direct relationship to the old SS cultural and religious practices-even if just what was vestigally left in the former SS circles.

If I were you, I would take care of them.

[Ron C.]

I decided to try one more time with a different camera, and a bit different lighting to show some of the "dots" that are largley filled in with the coating. Although they do not show up well, you, I think, can see the 6 dot groups which the red arrows point to on both of the candleholders or Julluechters.

Ron

[Michael Fay]

Yep, I noticed the "extra"dots the first time...just didnt mention it as I figured someone else would be happy to point them out.

-Michael

[Ron C.]

They are more than "just candlesticks." If as you say you got one of them from an elderly SS man in the 1970's then that one is at least from a SS veteran's supplier. At best ...well they could be from the TR era.
I am not an expert on fakes or authentic Jul-Leuchters...some look better than others to me.But it is only my personal feelings that to my eye- yours dont look like the modern made ones.

What is most important is that you know you recieved one from your elderly friend.
That in itself makes it more than just a candlestick-both as a sentimental gift and as having a direct relationship to the old SS cultural and religious practices-even if just what was vestigally left in the former SS circles.

If I were you, I would take care of them.

Thank you very much for the opinion, and information Michael. I have had a very few people, who have seen them, try to acquire them from me; however, I turned them down because I knew the man from whom I got one of them, and I liked them as well. I have liked them well enough to keep them for slightly over 30 years now, and, following your recommendation, I will keep them for sometime to come...........maybe not another 30 years...........I very much doubt that I will make it to age 99, but I will give it my best shot!

Thanks again,
Ron

[Albrecht]

But looking at the copy of the orignal Himmler letter on page 38, one sees the third paragraph as "Das kleine Licht, das unter dem Leuchter steht, brenne als Sinnbild des zu Ende gehenden Jahres in seiner letzen Stunde."
It is obvious Ulrich/Berger omitted the clause that reads "...that stands under the lantern,...". There was a small candle that burned within the lantern and was to be symbolically replaced with the new one on top.

Thank you for posting this.

Apparently my presumption that an interior candle was never used during the 3rd Reich period is erroneous, although one still wonders how the upper candle avoided melting from the internal heat. The use of two candles makes sense from a conceptual standpoint, but there doesn't seem to be any information as to how the inner light was secured. If this inner candle was the remains of the old candle from above, how did it stand upright?

Michael, your disdain for Wikipedia is understandable. Nevertheless, it sometimes has information and photos that are unavailable elsewhere. In this case, I'm certainly not saying that these relics can be authenticated from the article, but there are some pre- Third Reich examples shown, as well as some modern reproductions. I do recall the other article you originally mentioned, and I'm fairly certain that it was used to flesh out this Wikipedia article.

The 'six dots' evident on both of Ron's holders are often touted by dealers as a sign of authenticity. Not all of the period leuchters have them. Observe here on the Ulrich site- http://www.ulric-of-england.com/porcelain.html

Unfortunately, there have been reproductions made in the past few years with the same pattern, so I would encourage collectors not to presume that authenticity is guaranteed because of the six dots. By way of example, here is one that appears to be a reproduction. It is listed on ioffer. http://www.ioffer.com/i/SS-JULLEUCHT...STICE-70604041

These Leuchters are wonderful relics in my opinion. If I had yours Ron, repainted or no, I certainly would not let them go. Absolutely agree with Michael's sentiments there.

best,

B.A.Vierling

[JoeW]

Folks,

To envoke the light of understanding here:

Has anyone here ever heard of a Hindenburglicht?

Wasn´t that type of candle already in use during the First World War?

Can anybody explain what I mean?

Have in mind the big diameter of the hole INSIDE at the bottom of the Julleuchter and the other common smaller diameter of the hole ON THE TOP of the Julleuchter!

Do it and you have the solution to the question what kind of candle was meant to be in use INSIDE the Julleuchter.....

Thorsten, or someone else, what was a Hindenburglicht? Some kind of trench candle that would work under the Julleuchter?

[Ron C.]

These Leuchters are wonderful relics in my opinion. If I had yours Ron, repainted or no, I certainly would not let them go. Absolutely agree with Michael's sentiments there.

best,

B.A.Vierling

Thanks Albrecht. As I said, I didn't know about Julleuchters when I got them, and didn't really know much when I posted them.........still don't know a whole lot, but you fellows are improving my knowledge. I guess I would be better off not setting out to buy them......some of those I have seen on the forum identified as repros would make it dangerous for me to jump into them now! You and Michael have given me a new appreciation for mine.

One question pops into my mind. Assuming arguendo that mine are pre-1945, or even the ones offered later to SS vets as Mark said was done, and further assuming that they were painted to protect them and to make cleaning them easier as Michael opined....I wonder if it was suggested that the dark brown was a color for using? Even though the color is a bit different on mine...they do not match exactly....they are both a darker brown. I hadn't noticed any difference in the color with my eyes; it just showed up in the camera flash when they were sitting side by side. They came from different locations in Germany. The one I got from Werner was from the area around Kassel, and the other I bought off a table at the Frankfurt fleamarket which just had a mish mash of stuff on it.........looked like someone had cleaned out an attic or basement and brought it to the fleamarket.........or picked up on Sperrmülltag and brought to the fleamarket. Was it a coincidence they both picked that color, could it have been a suggested color by the authorities? I suppose it is not important.........just curious. It is a curse I bear!

Ron

[Capt. R]

Ron, hold onto both of them.

I have one similar to yours which I assumed was a repro but it may be good after all based on the discussion here.

Display them up high away from the dogs and kids and enjoy them.


We expect to see some nice Jul photos come Dezember with your 2 juleuchters and some greenery, etc!!

here was a couple pics of mine which I assume(d) was a repro - note the same color - prob. a paint over...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=juleuchter

And here is one of my favorite threads on the forum...some great relics here - see all 8 pages!
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+corner&page=4

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+corner&page=5

[ErichS]

Most that I've seen are lighter in color. They made six dot ones and ones without six dots which has nothing to do with authenticity. As I said before the fakes are still pretty easy to spot. Here's my example.

[Ron C.]

Ron, hold onto both of them.

I have one similar to yours which I assumed was a repro but it may be good after all based on the discussion here.

Display them up high away from the dogs and kids and enjoy them.


We expect to see some nice Jul photos come Dezember with your 2 juleuchters and some greenery, etc!!

here was a couple pics of mine which I assume(d) was a repro - note the same color - prob. a paint over...

I plan to put them on my mantle which is at the top of a stone fireplace, and is about 6 feet off the floor, with my beersteins.......dogs can't jump that high, nor can the cats, and this is nothing for the cats to jump up on to make the second jump! I plan on being around for Christmas.....so I will see what I can come up with in the way of photos.

Nice shots of yours................interesting that it too is a similar color to both of mine...........now we have at least three individuals that just happened to pick a similar brown color to cover their leuchters........the coincedence is building on the color choice............or is it a coincedence?

Ron