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**Michael Fay** · 05-21-2010, 03:41 AM

I wonder which one of us really knows more

Originally posted by SS-Strm View Post

sigh......please open up a book.

its one thing that they were Muslim but first and foremost they saw themselves as White Europeans like 99% of other Europeans....
how hard is that to believe?
religion is one thing, and regardless of what biased views you have based on whats going on today...you dont have the full understanding of the mindset.

I have opened more books (and read them) than you have ever held in your hands.
Do you know what Himmler and his race experts believed about the Bosnian Muslims? how about all Muslims in general? or the Turkic people's?
Do you know the race theories of the SS in regard to Kroats? or Serbs?
I know very well about the Ancient (Celtic-Germanic-Slavic) Dacians, the Holy race of the Serbs-the Cetniki-Haiduk-Romaniya connection , and the Bogomils Albigensian heterodoxy (and how they have been thought to be the ancient "European" ancestors of the Bosniak Muslims who became Muslims for more than one reason after the Turkic conquest,) and the ancient Illyrians/Illirik as being considered the earliest peoples in the area and claimed by all ethnicities in the area as being their ancestors-including the Albanians
I also know how these perceptions were in use in the later Balkan conflicts and even after.

So .... Waf member SS -Strm (what is your real name?) ,
Please teach me and this forum what YOU know.

-Hvala lepa.

**SS-Strm** · 05-21-2010, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by Michael Fay View Post

I have opened more books (and read them) than you have ever held in your hands.
Do you know what Himmler and his race experts believed about the Bosnian Muslims? how about all Muslims in general? or the Turkic people's?
Do you know the race theories of the SS in regard to Kroats? or Serbs?
I know very well about the Ancient (Celtic-Germanic-Slavic) Dacians, the Holy race of the Serbs-the Cetniki-Haiduk-Romaniya connection , and the Bogomils Albigensian heterodoxy (and how they have been thought to be the ancient "European" ancestors of the Bosniak Muslims who became Muslims for more than one reason after the Turkic conquest,) and the ancient Illyrians/Illirik as being considered the earliest peoples in the area and claimed by all ethnicities in the area as being their ancestors-including the Albanians
I also know how these perceptions were in use in the later Balkan conflicts and even after.

So .... Waf member SS -Strm (what is your real name?) ,
Please teach me and this forum what YOU know.

-Hvala lepa.

Himmler adopted the belief that the Bosnian and Croatian researchers and officials were pushing through, that.....Bosnians were descendants of 6-7th Century Ostrogoths and thus Germanic. Some said Illyrians but, stressing that they werent of Slavic descent that their Serbian neighbors were.
Slavic by language, Spiritually Islamic, Racially Germanic. That was a phrase that was repeated often in 1943 and years prior to that. Imams knew it well. However that was the mindset of that time.

(you can find more on that in Lepre's book, however I dont have the time or patience to look for sources on everything)

The reason for WHITE...Muslims in the Waffen SS was many-fold and their religion shouldnt be taken into context so quickly. Because during the previous world war they proven to be very effective and famous mountain troops. With the example of BH Regiment Nr. 2 from the area of Banja Luka, which was the most decorated unit in the entire AH Army. I forget which Bosnian unit held 2nd or 3rd place in that line...

...and then offcourse you have the political reason....draw the rest of the Muslim world into the fight.

Here were a people on the brink of annihilation, eager to fight, if they were armed that is. Handschar was a blessing for the Muslims of northeastern Bosnia in many ways. It stopped the cetnik and partisan massacres in the region and convinced Tito to take the Bosnians more seriously.

your first message is an over-generalization.....I didnt expect that from you.
Ive spent 10 years on the subject and dont see whats so hard to believe.
Two other divisions also had field chaplains and strong religious beliefs.
and I would think that in a "militant pagan" organization such as the SS, religion would be a positive thing (since a huge proportion of the original SS members werent church goers)

**Michael Fay** · 05-21-2010, 07:08 PM

Straw man debate tactics are weak

Originally posted by SS-Strm View Post

Himmler adopted the belief that the Bosnian and Croatian researchers and officials were pushing through, that.....Bosnians were descendants of 6-7th Century Ostrogoths and thus Germanic. Some said Illyrians but, stressing that they werent of Slavic descent that their Serbian neighbors were.
Slavic by language, Spiritually Islamic, Racially Germanic. That was a phrase that was repeated often in 1943 and years prior to that. Imams knew it well. However that was the mindset of that time.

(you can find more on that in Lepre's book, however I dont have the time or patience to look for sources on everything)

The reason for WHITE...Muslims in the Waffen SS was many-fold and their religion shouldnt be taken into context so quickly. Because during the previous world war they proven to be very effective and famous mountain troops. With the example of BH Regiment Nr. 2 from the area of Banja Luka, which was the most decorated unit in the entire AH Army. I forget which Bosnian unit held 2nd or 3rd place in that line...

...and then offcourse you have the political reason....draw the rest of the Muslim world into the fight.

Here were a people on the brink of annihilation, eager to fight, if they were armed that is. Handschar was a blessing for the Muslims of northeastern Bosnia in many ways. It stopped the cetnik and partisan massacres in the region and convinced Tito to take the Bosnians more seriously.

your first message is an over-generalization.....I didnt expect that from you.
Ive spent 10 years on the subject and dont see whats so hard to believe.
Two other divisions also had field chaplains and strong religious beliefs.
and I would think that in a "militant pagan" organization such as the SS, religion would be a positive thing (since a huge proportion of the original SS members werent church goers)

To whatever your real name is,

You are trying to saddle me with the "Straw man" fallacy from a high school debate class. Sorry but I wont let you. I have not made any statements against your latest arguements that you claim I have trouble "believing." Nothing you have mentioned above was denied by any of my posts. Simply, it is nothing I have ever claimed was not true. So why dont you stick with what I actually have written.
All you wrote above is not, and was not ever in contestation by me, except your insults.

My "first statement" that you say was an "overgeneralized" was simply about the SS perceptions of this group, and the utilization of images by the SS: as exemplified by the SS recruitment poster that the thread was and is about.
So I stand by my first statement implicitly.

As for your having no time to mention titles or authors, well it was you who told me "to open up a book."
After all your complaining, The least you could do is tell me which books I have not read that will teach me what you think I need to know . Lepre's book is a bit too obvious,dont you think? I read it and it made me think as I do now.

**Capt. R** · 05-21-2010, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by besslein View Post

not a poster in fact but still nice

A Treasure!

**CurtD** · 05-21-2010, 11:12 PM

Himmler adopted the Muslims into the SS late in the war for practical reasons:

1) Serious manpower shortage.
2) They were fanatics willing to give their lives if ordered (I believe Himmler called them "perfect soldiers" in that regard).
3) They hated the Jews as much as he did (and still do).

**JOHN VD HEIJDEN** · 05-22-2010, 08:07 AM

re

And here are mine dutch ss recruiting-posters

Attached Files

**PBR** · 05-22-2010, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by SS-Strm View Post

Himmler adopted the belief that the Bosnian and Croatian researchers and officials were pushing through, that.....Bosnians were descendants of 6-7th Century Ostrogoths and thus Germanic. Some said Illyrians but, stressing that they werent of Slavic descent that their Serbian neighbors were.
Slavic by language, Spiritually Islamic, Racially Germanic. That was a phrase that was repeated often in 1943 and years prior to that. Imams knew it well. However that was the mindset of that time.

(you can find more on that in Lepre's book, however I dont have the time or patience to look for sources on everything)

The reason for WHITE...Muslims in the Waffen SS was many-fold and their religion shouldnt be taken into context so quickly. Because during the previous world war they proven to be very effective and famous mountain troops. With the example of BH Regiment Nr. 2 from the area of Banja Luka, which was the most decorated unit in the entire AH Army. I forget which Bosnian unit held 2nd or 3rd place in that line...

...and then offcourse you have the political reason....draw the rest of the Muslim world into the fight.

Here were a people on the brink of annihilation, eager to fight, if they were armed that is. Handschar was a blessing for the Muslims of northeastern Bosnia in many ways. It stopped the cetnik and partisan massacres in the region and convinced Tito to take the Bosnians more seriously.

your first message is an over-generalization.....I didnt expect that from you.
Ive spent 10 years on the subject and dont see whats so hard to believe.
Two other divisions also had field chaplains and strong religious beliefs.
and I would think that in a "militant pagan" organization such as the SS, religion would be a positive thing (since a huge proportion of the original SS members werent church goers)

I actually don't understand why you bother us with all this stuff and your attitude.
I don't recall to have you asked so, and the other forum members here neither: this is a thread about WSS poster, did you notice?
Do you think that you are the only one here to own Lepre's book?
You think you are the only person here to have spent many years researching such kind of subject?
You are wrong, trust me.

By the way, you may have spent 10 years researching on that subject, but apparently they were not enough since Austro-Hungarian BH Regiments were not Mountain Troops but actually Infantry and Feldjäger Regiments.
The only AH mountain troops were the Gebirgsschützen and Kaiser\Landesschützen, along with the Standschützen militia volunteers from Tirol that we can actually consider a Mountain Unit.

**kammo man** · 05-22-2010, 01:18 PM

Lets get back to looking at some rare pieces of paper PLEASE.
owen

**John Pen.** · 05-22-2010, 01:42 PM

Some AMAZING SS posters shown here!
Jp

**SS-Strm** · 05-23-2010, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by CurtD View Post

Himmler adopted the Muslims into the SS late in the war for practical reasons:

1) Serious manpower shortage.
2) They were fanatics willing to give their lives if ordered (I believe Himmler called them "perfect soldiers" in that regard).
3) They hated the Jews as much as he did (and still do).

They were going to make good soldiers because 1. a majority of the partisans were Serbs, 2. of their warrior culture, 3. bloody history and 4. the simple fact that one of the largest genocides was being carried out against them at the time.

The Bosnians had no real hatred for the Jews, nor do they today. A very small minority of religious fanatics in Bosnia even mention the Jews. The Imams of the Division were further educated by the SS to consider the Jews as their enemies (aside from the Serbs) that is the explanation behind the infamous "Islam und Judentum" propaganda photo. Blaming the Jews wasnt a common thing for Bosnians, the Germans helped them make that connection.

Bosnians are very nationalistic, religion comes second when their physical existance is at stake.

**SS-Strm** · 05-23-2010, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by Michael Fay View Post

To whatever your real name is,

You are trying to saddle me with the "Straw man" fallacy from a high school debate class. Sorry but I wont let you. I have not made any statements against your latest arguements that you claim I have trouble "believing." Nothing you have mentioned above was denied by any of my posts. Simply, it is nothing I have ever claimed was not true. So why dont you stick with what I actually have written.
All you wrote above is not, and was not ever in contestation by me, except your insults.

My "first statement" that you say was an "overgeneralized" was simply about the SS perceptions of this group, and the utilization of images by the SS: as exemplified by the SS recruitment poster that the thread was and is about.
So I stand by my first statement implicitly.

As for your having no time to mention titles or authors, well it was you who told me "to open up a book."
After all your complaining, The least you could do is tell me which books I have not read that will teach me what you think I need to know . Lepre's book is a bit too obvious,dont you think? I read it and it made me think as I do now.

cool story bro

**SS-Strm** · 05-23-2010, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by T.K. View Post

I actually don't understand why you bother us with all this stuff and your attitude.
I don't recall to have you asked so, and the other forum members here neither: this is a thread about WSS poster, did you notice?
Do you think that you are the only one here to own Lepre's book?
You think you are the only person here to have spent many years researching such kind of subject?
You are wrong, trust me.

By the way, you may have spent 10 years researching on that subject, but apparently they were not enough since Austro-Hungarian BH Regiments were not Mountain Troops but actually Infantry and Feldjäger Regiments.
The only AH mountain troops were the Gebirgsschützen and Kaiser\Landesschützen, along with the Standschützen militia volunteers from Tirol that we can actually consider a Mountain Unit.

books? aside from Lepre's, Ive read the Sulejmanpasic one (in Bosnian) which was the first real piece of literature to come out on the subject written by a Bosnian who interviewed the veterans, quickly after the war. Debunking the first myths and lie about the formation that were building up during the Cold War era in communist Yugoslavia.
...and being from northeastern Bosnia, I've talked to a bunch of Handschar veterans

**Michael Fay** · 05-23-2010, 02:12 AM

Mit dem Blick nach Mekka

Originally posted by kammo man View Post

Lets get back to looking at some rare pieces of paper PLEASE.
owen

Good idea...

Here is my contribution to SS Propaganda (not a poster, but a plakard)

Cinema plakard propaganda sheet to show the moviegoers how the world was rising up to join in with the new National Socialist dynamic spirit (of the 40's which opened up the criterion for ethnic volunteers) to fight the Bolshevik menance.

Attached Files

SS Bosnische Freiwillige 2 resized.JPG (90.6 KB, 1603 views)

**PBR** · 05-23-2010, 03:24 AM

Originally posted by SS-Strm View Post

books? aside from Lepre's, Ive read the Sulejmanpasic one (in Bosnian) which was the first real piece of literature to come out on the subject written by a Bosnian who interviewed the veterans, quickly after the war. Debunking the first myths and lie about the formation that were building up during the Cold War era in communist Yugoslavia.
...and being from northeastern Bosnia, I've talked to a bunch of Handschar veterans

And who cares?
Please stay on topic, otherwise stop this.

**PBR** · 05-23-2010, 03:25 AM

Originally posted by Michael Fay View Post

Good idea...

Here is my contribution to SS Propaganda (not a poster, but a plakard)

Cinema plakard propaganda sheet to show the moviegoers how the world was rising up to join in with the new National Socialist dynamic spirit (of the 40's which opened up the criterion for ethnic volunteers) to fight the Bolshevik menance.

Hello Michael,

Isn't this a PK-photo for press use?
I also had a couple related to Handschar, they are pretty big.

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