SS TK honor ring

[Bob Hritz]

Gahr used rubber molds, which were made around the master flat bar, that was the ring, when bent to circular form on a mandrel. The rubber molds were made to cast wax copies, which were then hand finished. These wax pieces were then set into an investment material, in a clay or plaster cup, with a sprew added to allow the silver to flow, when the wax was burned out of the hardened investment material.

Now, there are three ways to make the silver ring, in the investment material:

1. by attaching the crucible in a centrafuge which spun as the molten silver was poured into the sprew, thus filling the mold,

2. by placing the crucible into a vacuum chamber which allowed the molten silver to be poured into the investment mold, or

3. by pouring the silver into the investment mold and when filled to the top of the sprew, applying a water saturated piece of leather, with pressure, to the top of the mold, using the steam pressure to force the silver into the mold to take a clear cast.

These are the three processes used in the investment, or lost wax, casting process. In each and every copy made, the resultant silver bar will take the impression of the wax model. Because the wax needs to be hand detailed, after it was taken out of the rubber mold, there can, and will be, slight differences in each piece. Then, when the wax is burned out of the investment material, the silver must flow perfectly, filling every detail of the investment cavity. If the silver captured an air bubble, or did not fully fill some crevice, hand work is needed to clean up the silver bar, that will become the ring, once formed around a mandrell.

Lost wax is not alchemy or involving the black arts, but has been used since the Egyptians made jewelry. It is the method that is currently used to make most jewelry, today. it is the same system that dental workers use to make a replacement crown, of gold, silver or any of the porcelins.

You must allow for differences due to two stages of handwork, on the wax model and on the silver copy of the wax model.

Bob Hritz

[Bob Hritz]

Do a search for 'jewelry wax patterns', on the internet, and you will find many companies that show how jewelry is made. I attach a small photo of wax patterns and the rubber molds used to create them.

Bob Hritz

[Craig Gottlieb]

Bob Hritz is correct - rings were cast, which is a process that will result in minor variations that require hand-finishing - which accounts for some minor variation from ring to ring (see Priess, Frank, and Schmidt above). The only point upon which I tend to disagree with Bob (and I THINK this is my read of his post - if it is not, my apologies Bob) is the notion that ring stock was cast flat, and then bent into a round circle. This step is not needed. Most rings (even the ones in his excellent image, above) in jewelry making are cast round - even those with designs. Again, thank you Bob for your excellent contribution. I cover these points in my book.

[Bob Hritz]

Bob Hritz is correct - rings were cast, which is a process that will result in minor variations that require hand-finishing - which accounts for some minor variation from ring to ring (see Priess, Frank, and Schmidt above). The only point upon which I tend to disagree with Bob (and I THINK this is my read of his post - if it is not, my apologies Bob) is the notion that ring stock was cast flat, and then bent into a round circle. This step is not needed. Most rings (even the ones in his excellent image, above) in jewelry making are cast round - even those with designs. Again, thank you Bob for your excellent contribution. I cover these points in my book.

Craig,

i certainly could be incorrect about casting them flat as bars. I would think it would be easier to make the size by sutting away the forward leaves, on flat stock, before bending. However, it is possible that the masters were made in sizes or that it was just as easy to cut away the forward leaves from a ring cast round.

The good news is that in each stage of the casting process, the excited molecules of the heated wax and the heated silver cause expansion. This means that you cannot take an existant ring and make a casting, using the lost wax process, and make a ring of the sale dimentions. The copy will be from 7 to 10+ [percent smaller. This is good to know and measurements and weights are important.

I think Craig is to be commended for his work at removing some of the misinformation we have all heard over the years. I look forward to his further research and I look forward to getting my copy of Craig's book, at the SOS.

Bob Hritz

[Gaspare]

My opinion is that there is a little mis information here. Do you guys really think the HR was a investment/lost wax cast?

Craig,, I joined GDC 7 years ago. Then you knew very little about the HR. By that time Don saw many in hand. Even just a few years ago I saw you bring HRs to Don at the MAX for authentication.. So,, when the rings you bring to him 'pass' by Dons standards his CoA is fine.. BUT, when one of your rings fail you disagree with him,,of course..
JR, I believe recently Don didn't like a box you either had or sold,,and maybe a HR [please correct me if I'm wrong],,and now you being good friends with Craig put out this statement:

"A.) He either made a mistake in his examination and evaluation of this near mint and almost perfect preserved ring, and determined it was bad.
B.) He purposely chose to write a bad certification to discredit a totally proper period ring ? "

Couldn't it be with his experience he sees a fake ring and states so,,,why did he make a mistake? or purposely chose to write a bad certification to discredit a totally proper period ring ... It doesn't make sense,,,what is the agenda you 2 have? Are the both of you now offering CoAs or is it just Craig?... Give it a break guys.......<!-- / message -->

[Bob Hritz]

Gaspare,

I am always open to consider other methods. However, I can't see the rings being cast any other way. Fine sand casting can be good, but the amount of handwork is great and detail is not always excellent. If they are forged by pressing plastic-state silver alloy into a die, that is possible, but the need for the costly equipment makes it seem not necessary.

The Gahr Deutschland Erwache eagles are cast or mold injected because they are hollow. I would think the firma Gahr would use the methods that were already on hand.

Do you have any ideas on how the rings were made? I am always looking for information on manufacturing methods as that is how we can determine similar patterns.

Bob Hritz

[Gaspare]

Bob,,
http://www.diecasting.org/faq/

[Craig Gottlieb]

Bob: Thanks for the very informative information. I too thought rings were cast flat, engraved, and then "bent and joined" until I proposed that to the jewelers I interviewed. Every single one of them looked at me incredulously, and asked "why would we do that?" My answer was, "Well, it'd be easier to engrave, wouldn't it?" They all said that a competent engraver would have no trouble engraving inside a ring, and that it'd actually be easier to make (less labor) if it were cast as a circle. See you at the SOS! JR: If you wish, bring your FRANK ring to the show, and we can have fun comparing it to other rings, which I will have on hand (I'm sure Andy Legere and John Peppera will have some on hand too).

[John Pepera]

Craig and Bob,
<O<O
Bob, I concur with your thoughts about the ring being initially laid out as a flat bar format and am completely against what Craig is saying about being manufactured in the round. If it was began in the round, when and how did they size it? After being soldered then sized and then re-soldered then the skull attached and THEN inscribed??? Myself and in my opinion, I doubt these thoughts and ideas very much.<O
<O
Bob, I’m familiar with the ‘lost wax’ method and the kinds of manufacturing molds that you have attached and the processes that you’ve described. However, is there any substantial or a shred of period documentation to the effect that the SS Honor Rings were made in a Rubber Mold and as you further describe?<O
<O
Additionally, you continue to state that the rings were cast. Do you mean cast or die cast?

<O<OAnd last but most importantly concerning these personal declaration’s of facts, is there any period documentation in these regards or is there any period manufacturing provenance which I would highly expect that there should be substantial authentic information considering a person has declared their expertise, is stating absolute facts and has authored a book.<O
<O
Respectfully

John Pepera<O

[JR.]

Gaspare, I'm telling you and the rest of the collecting community that he who declares himself the the self proclaimed" honor ring man", is not telling the truth on the Frank ring............................no matter what you would like to believe.

[Gaspare]

JR,, how about this.. Didn't you recently have a HR that you weren't sure on? Why would you send it to Don?! For what reason? you have your good friend that just wrote a book on the subject..
If it came back o.k. we wouldn't be having this conversation..

Dealers have to look at many different items of nazi regalia. Collectors too. Don for many years has specialized in the one thing,,,the Honor ring.. He also knows 100% how the ring is made. Don't know if Herr Peichl still walks the earth or if Craig interviewed him but Don knew him well,,and knows his HRs.. If your not happy with Dons lifetime study don't send him any more rings and boxes,, its that simple...

[John Pepera]

Craig,

You state, "until I proposed that to the jewelers I interviewed"

What kind of jewelers from where and when and did they have any inking as to the subjet in 1934-1945?

Hopefully, your book is more substantial and factual rather than "I know because I spoke to a Joe Shmo"

John

[JR.]

Hey G.................. lov ya babe.......................... If you want this woman's phone number to verify the truth that your "friend that you so vehemently defend on ever forum" lied I'll give it you mate.

[Gaspare]

'My Dad',, I hope for your sake thats a typo and you not disrespecting me or my Father....

You really want to put emails up here?! Just let me know when old buddy.....

[Craig Gottlieb]

John: As you know, absent documentation, we must deduce our opinions from the physical evidence that exists - in this case, the body of rings we are fortunate enough to possess. Jewelers I interviewed were universal in their conclusion that the Totenkopf ring was cast from a rubber-type mold created from one master. These jewelers learned their ancient craft from a variety of sources. Furthermore, they suggested that it would have been much easier to cast them in the largest size anticipated, cut them, remove equal portions of band from the ring to achieve the correct size, and then solder them back together. To hammer a flat band into a round shape would take significantly more work, talent, and effort. If you want to conduct your own experiment, take your noteworthy ring collection to some custom jewelers and ask them what they think. There is an entire building in San Diego called "The Jewelry Exchange" and it is 8 floors filled with jewelry designers. I'm sure there is a similar "hub" in your city. I really did expect a variety of opinions, but down to the man (and woman) they all said the same thing.