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**Mike C** · 02-06-2009, 03:20 PM

Hi Grant,

Apreciate your point on Jason and frankly, if either he or you were selling a piece, I would look at it in a completely different light than some anonomous offering on the net. This being said, you are making my point about that leap of faith or trust (which is built on a bunch of intangibles which include provenance and vendor) - in the vast majority of cases, you have no guarentee and your decision is based on informed judgement and (dare I say it) gut feel.

I also do not subscribe to the theory that inevitably the perfect fake will put us all out of business. If nothing else, I can document when I acquired my pieces - which hopefully predates the creation of the perfect fake. Again - if I can trace an item back to 1950, I look at it differently than something that has just surfaced - recognizing that between 1945-1950 this piece could have been a compilation of real tunic and insignia whipped up by the local German tailor for an occupation GI.

John.

Good to hear from and delighted that you are keeping your hand in. I have one or two treasures (none related to any collecting field) that are much like your Kachina. Funny thing (but I think it makes my point about faith, experience and gut), I would probably sell the tunic/grouping that has what I think is rock -solid provenance before another tunic that has no provenance, has never been published and which came from a dealer - but which I utterly believe is a superb combat piece. Now could I sell this for serious dollars without this provenance? I think yes - but frankly it doesn't matter...it speaks to me. And yes I have paid more than 10K for unattributed pieces.

Cheers,

Mike

**judas** · 02-06-2009, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Hohenstaufen View Post

Andre,

Well, it looks like I have jumped into this thread too late on giving my advice, and it appears that you have already made up your mind.
Anyway, my thought on the tunic in question is this, I totally agree with what Dr.S , John Pic are saying, in that, if that tunic was 100% (untouched) real, then it wouldn't have seen the "light of day" when the seller decided to part with it. The cold hard truth about SS tunics is this, 1) untouched, and un-messed with originals with provenance is very rare! 2) If and when, they do become available, then they are 99% of the time sold from one collection to another w/o anyone knowing until after the fact! 3) When the do sell, then the price is very, very high!
If you don't believe what I am saying, then can anyone out there remember when Bob Alexander, Walter Hombach, and Darrel Williams, collections were sold ? If my memory serves me correct, Bob Alexanders collection ( the really good stuff) was bought by Steve Wolfe and Neil Hardin, then I believe when they were finished, Walter Hombach ( when he was still with us) was next in line and bought some more, then finally Bob brought the rest to one of the MAX shows and laid it all out on two or three tables for the public to buy. The point being, Wolfe/Hardin got most of the documented "untouched" material before anyone else even knew about it!! The stuff Walter bought he kept until is misfortunate accident, which robbed the hobby of a great person (for those of us who knew him) and the same with Darrel Williams and his illness, then those items where bought privately as well, the really good stuff.
So , what is that all saying about the tunic in question ? I will let you come up with your own conculsions after what I and everyone else has said. Foe me, before I spend 20k+ on any SS tunic, hat, etc... then I would want rock solid provenance with the item(s).

The SS tunics that I do have, 6 all together, which three of them, Jason Burmeister and/or myself purchased directly from US Veterans in hotel buys, I would not even consider parting with any of the three in the 20K - 30K price range. If that gives you any answers

.

History of the piece, facts, and/or provenance means everything in this hobby. Think about it, twenty years from now, when the repros are DEAD on, or no-one who knew anything about the items are around, then what is the only thing that we or future collectors will have to go on about its originality, PROVENANCE!!! Just my thoughts, Regards, Grant

can you please tell me then about the ss tunics on your site what about the sd drill jacket on page 973 .kind regards

**Bob Hritz** · 02-06-2009, 03:33 PM

I guess I should have sold my collection to Steve Wolfe, last week. Sadly, I never thought it would be worthless, when I die, butr I suppose it will make little difference to my ashes.

Like my friend John Pic, I also have things that are far more important to me than these military trinkets. Those Native American relics I have hunted, all my life, are much more meaningful to me. I know the first arrowhead I ever found still invokes the thrill I had the moment I found it. Sadly, I have never been able to find the vintage wood Katchinas of my dreams. I know exactly how you feel, John.

Bob Hritz

**Dr. Strangelove** · 02-06-2009, 04:15 PM

Arrowheads

Bob, how many Arrowheads for the Camo Insignia Hat?

**Bob Hritz** · 02-06-2009, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post

Bob, how many Arrowheads for the Camo Insignia Hat?

Meine Doktor,

I only save the one I find myself.

Best regards,
Bob

**phild** · 02-06-2009, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by Mike C View Post

Hi Grant,

Apreciate your point on Jason and frankly, if either he or you were selling a piece, I would look at it in a completely different light than some anonomous offering on the net. This being said, you are making my point about that leap of faith or trust (which is built on a bunch of intangibles which include provenance and vendor) - in the vast majority of cases, you have no guarentee and your decision is based on informed judgement and (dare I say it) gut feel.

I also do not subscribe to the theory that inevitably the perfect fake will put us all out of business. If nothing else, I can document when I acquired my pieces - which hopefully predates the creation of the perfect fake. Again - if I can trace an item back to 1950, I look at it differently than something that has just surfaced - recognizing that between 1945-1950 this piece could have been a compilation of real tunic and insignia whipped up by the local German tailor for an occupation GI.

John.

Good to hear from and delighted that you are keeping your hand in. I have one or two treasures (none related to any collecting field) that are much like your Kachina. Funny thing (but I think it makes my point about faith, experience and gut), I would probably sell the tunic/grouping that has what I think is rock -solid provenance before another tunic that has no provenance, has never been published and which came from a dealer - but which I utterly believe is a superb combat piece. Now could I sell this for serious dollars without this provenance? I think yes - but frankly it doesn't matter...it speaks to me. And yes I have paid more than 10K for unattributed pieces.

Cheers,

Mike

Many of your points along with Grant's point goes against the "buy the item, not story" maxim that so many collectors like to proclaim from the battlements! I really do not see how it matters what the source is of an item...at least within reason, the item should stand on it's merits.

I do know that provonance can be easily faked even with a mound of documentation. It really means little without a rock solid chain of custody to go with it....at least for the cynical..which is to say most all SS collectors these days.

It is sort of sad that if a person is not well known then there is an apparent lack of credibility of the source. This really means that un-known collectors need to sell their items to well known collectors or dealers in order to have a market for them.

**Hohenstaufen** · 02-06-2009, 05:07 PM

...

**judas** · 02-06-2009, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by Hohenstaufen View Post

Judas,

Hello, If you are reffering to the SD drill tunic in Beaver's books on pg. 973, then here is what I can tell you about it. The tunic was purchased by Jason back in the late 1990's in one of his hotel buys in North Carolina. If you want the exact place, date, and time, then you have to ask him. The tunic was brought into his show by the grandson of a US veteran. The grandson, being Jewish, tried to loan the tunic to the Holocost museum in Washington in honor to his grandfather. They returned the tunic cliaming that they had no room to display it. ( I bet if he was wanting to donate it, then they would have gladly accepted ) Anyway, The grandson was shocked with their answer and put it back into storage until he saw Jason's ad in the paper, which he proceeded to bring it in and sell it to him.
Now, is the tunic real? IMHO yes. The insignias are consistant to the wear of the tunic. Was the piece textbook? No. There are several pictures of SS soldiers converting drill tunics, smocks, and dot pattern tunics, etc.. for wear in hot climates, especially during the Normandy campaign, and it was against regulations. I owned the tunic for several years, then Martin Stiles and I did a trade deal, which I believe, he has since sold the tunic, and where it currently resides, I have no idea.
The other drill tunic on my site, I purchased myself from a Canadian veteran back in 1999 in Kitchner, Ontario. That year I held several hotel buys throughout Ontario. The veteran claimed that he picked it up in France after one of the battles against the SS outside Caen. That is all that I know about that piece. Once again, is the piece real? IMHO yes. Is it textbook? no. Did the SS do things like this? most definately. Can I ask a huge price on it? No, since it is not a textbook piece. Again, the signs of wear on the insignias are consistant to the wear of the tunic.
The SS-VT drillich tunic shows signs of the sleeve eagle being replaced at some time, therefore, I cannot ask a huge amount of money for it, as if it was an untouched example! Again, is the tunic real? IMHO yes, does the insignia wear consistant to the tunic? Yes.
I hope that this has help to answer your questions. regards, Grant

thank you for your time ! i was just queries about your wright up and your thoughts on value of tunics . from what i have seen and read here i would put a bit more trust in the none textbook it has nothing to prove it is what it is !

**N.C. Wyeth** · 02-06-2009, 08:14 PM

So, again - does anyone have any further information about the tunic? Has anyone taken the time to ask Kris more about it's past?

Or is this just going to be another "therapy" thread?

Brad

**Mike C** · 02-06-2009, 08:29 PM

It is sort of sad that if a person is not well known then there is an apparent lack of credibility of the source. This really means that un-known collectors need to sell their items to well known collectors or dealers in order to have a market for them.[/quote]

Jeez - I hope this not the case. Every item stands on its merits and no one should be afraid to put a good piece out for assessmet. If it is good it will sell.

Mike

**Robert H** · 02-06-2009, 08:37 PM

For only maybe 3 reason's are am glad to be back in Detroit

One Online sales source is really loosing the quality with given Inventory, not good!

**phild** · 02-06-2009, 11:21 PM

The feeling that I get from reading and re-reading this thread..at least the last half of it, is as follows:

1. This uniform and most of the other high end SS items that this seller is offering can not be 100% original becuase they are being offered for sale by a dealer.

2. If they were "right" no one except the choosen few would even know that they had changed hands, therefore they are tainted in some way, even if not obvious.

3. The exception to item 1 is found in the case where a high end SS item is offered by the right dealer...then it can be considered original.

Forget the prices, the arrogance and dis-honesty alone will kill the hobby at this rate.

**PMan** · 02-06-2009, 11:22 PM

This thread???

This is most ridiculas thread I have encountered since being a member of WAF. On and on and on and on. This thread is about an Oberbayern tunic. It will cost you almost 30K to own. Hat not included. Not happy with that, move on! Has any one talked to Kris about the tunic???? What??? Do you you think he is going to say..Oh I forgot to post several photos of the German wearing it in 1943 posing for a family photo. That's not going to happen. End of story!

**Dr. Strangelove** · 02-07-2009, 12:57 AM

This thread is not the most..

This thread has even maligned German Cars! Trust me a Benzo and a Porsche are worth the money...just listen...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-GFqhCq2HA

**Hohenstaufen** · 02-07-2009, 01:32 AM

Guys,

Look, I give up and surrender on this thread

. Apparently, I may have offended some people or come across as being arrogant with my comments, therefore, I am not going to say anymore on the subject. My thoughts on SS tunics and their values, were just that, my opinions. I wish you guys the best of luck with your future purchases, no matter what they may be.

One thing to keep in mind, that I see and hear in a lot of other threads is the word "Hobby". IMO, and you can take this any way you wish, but when items cost 10, 20 , 30 , or 50 thousand and up, and dealers have 1 or 2 million, or more in gross sales in a year, then it is no longer a hobby , but big business!!!!

With that being said, if someone is going to spend that kind of cash, especially with today's economy, then I would certainly hope that he/she would know exactly what they are buying, with whatever proof may acompany the item. Regards, Grant

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Waffen SS Oberbayern (Totenkopf Division) Obersturmfuhrer's tunic

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