Waffen SS Oberbayern (Totenkopf Division) Obersturmfuhrer's tunic

[DKNYC71]

Most Tunics that are highly desirable never make it on to any Website.

Absolutely the truth!

[Panzer Rob]

What do feel would be a reasonable price for the Oberbayern tunic?
Peter

If I were in the market for a tunic of this caliber (and believe me, I would absolutely "love' to have this uniform in my collection) I'd want rock solid provenance back to the original source confirming it's authenticity - along with a complete list of which collections it has been in - before I'd even remotely consider spending any amount of money.

If a tunic like this can be proven beyond any doubt to be unquestionably original without any restored or re-applied insignia, then it's safe to say that it is "worth" what someone is willing to pay for it. Obviously the $30,000 asking price (this is the price quoted on the website, "without" the cap, mind you) must be too high, considering how long it has sat unsold.

Like others have pointed out, if it is such a great deal, then I would have expected it to have sold minutes or hours after being listed. Sure the current economic conditions have mostly everyone strapped for cash these days (myself included) but those who collect this caliber of Militaria and pay these prices are very wealthy and well-off individuals who I expect have enough money in place to continue to live comfortably and carry on relatively unaffected, regardless of how bad things are for the rest of us. I wouldn't use the economy to base a strong argument on as to why this set has not sold.

For me, if it can't be proven beyond any doubt to be untouched then I personally don't want it. I have absolutely nothing against put-together tunics using period worn insignia - as long as they are presented and of course sold as such. However, when it comes time to sell, they are "worth" really no more than the sum of their parts. That said, I'd much rather assemble the exact same setup for a fraction of the cost and sleep easy knowing what I have. Why risk $30,000 if you can't be absolutely positive it's original? This of course is only my opinion; I'm not a betting man and I work too hard for my money. This hobby is not about money to me and I could not care any less when someone throws numbers around or brags about how much they spend for what - it's a huge turnoff. I collect out of a love for the study and preservation of history and so naturally I'd much rather have an untouched, wartime original tunic. However, when it comes to these kinds of numbers, and considering how convincing some of the more recent post-war assembled tunics can be, I'd be much happier knowing that I had a original tunic assembled post-war with all original period worn insignia for say, $6,000, than a tunic "touted" as original for $30,000. I'm not saying this Oberbayern tunic is anything other than as advertised, but again - if it's my money, I want a one-looker with absolutely unquestionable lineage or I'd be just as happy not owning it.

In the end, it all boils down to what "you" think it's "worth." We can argue back and forth all day long and come up with multiple reasons as to why this set has sat unsold so long, but IMHO the main reason is that the price is too high for 99.9% of the collecting community. I would expect that, several years down the road, especially if interest in the hobby (particularly SS) dies off, coupled with the fact that we will no doubt see several large, old collections loaded with rare and desirable pieces start hitting the market - it won't be any easier to sell, especially at a profit. The laws of supply and demand work both ways.

Honestly, if I had the money to spend, I don't think I'd do it - I just cannot justify putting that much money into this set. Maybe if the visor was included that would change my mind, but $30,000 for that set just seems 'way' too much money for me. It would bother me every time I looked at it knowing I spent that much money on it.


Rob

[John Pic]

This is a hobby..its a hobby dominated by men and boys for the most part with a few exceptions. Now think...really think...what size and quality and rare diamond $30,000 would buy..so rare that only a few select celebrities or royalty would wear it only on special occaision..otherwise its socked away in safe deposit. Or the painting of an art master purchased descreetly by some unbelieveably wealthy collector and then put on loan to a museum.These things have value outside thier respective domains no matter what.

This is a uniform of an officer of the SS TK..it only has value within the narrow domain of Militaria collecting..to a Museum it is only worth the historical moment it represents, probably far less than $23,000. If I were to walk into a pawn shop with a $30,000 diamond I would have no problemsgetting some money..if I walked in with a TK uniform they might offer me a $100 loan..doesnt anyone see the insanity behind the current price trend of militaria..it seems to me some folks got carried away. Just because Millionaire Steve Wolfe said to himself one day as a young man he will spend whatever it takes to own all the "needful things" people want and if they want to buy them from him they will have to do so at a premium...He will set them up at shows with designer displays and people will pay and they did and still do ..because they dont think..they just want.
Look at all the dealers who after learning about him emulate him...they suddenly raise thier prices not over years of real inflation but because thats what he sells them for.

and....all because of a debate over a Panzer wrap on another forum Eurpean dealers suddenly inflated thier prices after reading the American experts all saying how priceless these things are. I saw one raise a price from a $4000 tunic to $8000 in a month. Its a sickness and the only cure is to let the items sit until reality sets in.

[John Pic]

Scott Hess...your post is the clearest and makes so much sense as to what I am talking about...you had that moment of epiphany when you realized you had so many Panzer throat mikes just sitting in your closet or display room..Each one could sold to pay for a months grocery bill or a trip to a fancy high end restaurant.

[Scott A. Hess]

Scott Hess...your post is the clearest and makes so much sense as to what I am talking about...you had that moment of epiphany when you realized you had so many Panzer throat mikes just sitting in your closet or display room..Each one could sold to pay for a months grocery bill or a trip to a fancy high end restaurant.

Thanks John, it wasn't until sifting through the closets and looking for small item selling that I realized that I have so much "stuff" that I hadn't realize the people who installed my alarm system walked off with a few pieces of it, nice hugh? I have closets stuffed, cant display it, cant really enjoy it, but can't seem to bring myself to sell it quite yet, but there has to be an "end" to it sometime, either by my hand or the ones who sell it off if I dont' when I kick. I know we have "disagreed" several times on some things, but your post of the other day really struck a chord, and I realize, the fun and "glitz" of it all is wearing thin, I used to get an item and just admire it for months, now, it winds up the same day in a closet, and sits there, I think that is the point where prudence dictates much reflection. As to prices, Iused to pony up whatever number was thrown up, well, as you've mentioned before, its come full circle, and now those same items are just out of reach, and I can't see this continuing in this vain, I just don't believe there are THAT many wealthy collectors up their to feed the entire chain, just dont believe its true. Ive talked to several higher dealers of late who are saying that the market is TOTALLY in the crapper, although they can't say this pubically. I still buy SMALLER items but I've filled most of the bigger niches I wanted, still would like a few pieces there, but well, approaching 50 there are fewer years left to collect that lay ahead rather than behind, it was great at 25 with money and relatively affordable prices. Now, hmm 30k tunic? Can't swallow it any longer. But, it just means less competition for those out there that still want to!

P.S. I cant really "stomach" those high end restaurants, been to a lot of them, Moscow, Vienna, St. Petersburg, all over, in the end, I'll take a 8 dollar Fudrucker 1/2 lb buger fries and thick chocolate milk shake made of french vanilla ice cream, I know, low brow, but dropping 400 dollars on a dinner reminds metoo much of the 55K ss generals visor, its fun to say "I've done it" but in the end, its IMHO a complete waste of money, and I dont like the 20 dolars worth of food on the plate and the 200 dollar "presentatin"

[John Pic]

I,ll take a Fudruckers Burger myself we dont have those up here .......

[Scott A. Hess]

I,ll take a Fudruckers Burger myself we dont have those up here .......

Had one friday, 1/2 pound, fries, shake god that was good, dont know this pertains to the tunic in question, but for the price of the tunic I could probably eat there several times a week for the rest of my life (maybe daily) until my arteries are so clogged up with fat that I fall face first into the burger after a major coronary! That might not be in the end such a bad way to go, given the many alternatives!

[merdock]

BNZ if only i could get a car like that here for $30000?

[Bob Hritz]

BNZ if only i could get a car like that here for $30000?

Yes, because in 10 years, it will sit in a rust heap scrapyard. I would not 'invest' in any car that is not already a collector's item.

Bob Hritz

[Panzer Rob]

Yes, because in 10 years, it will sit in a rust heap scrapyard. I would not 'invest' in any car that is not already a collector's item.

Bob Hritz

Rob

[bnz. 42]

Yes, for some reason, here in the USA Mercedes cars are cheapeast in the world even I drive Benz, but not SL-class yet, maybe because of the hobby (?)
Bob, in 10+ years we all will sit in a "rust heap scrapyard". Oh, yes, my friend, no doubts about it! Plus, we all look at things diferrently, for you everything is for investment, but for me cars and militaria are just for fun.

[Bob Hritz]

Yes, for some reason, here in the USA Mercedes cars are cheapeast in the world even I drive Benz, but not SL-class yet, maybe because of the hobby (?)
Bob, in 10+ years we all will sit in a "rust heap scrapyard". Oh, yes, my friend, no doubts about it! Plus, we all look at things diferrently, for you everything is for investment, but for me cars and militaria are just for fun.

For me, nothing is an investment as I have no plan to sell my collection. When I pass to the Great Void, I do not care what happens to my stuff.

For me, a car is nothing but a tool to get me from one place to another. My penis does not require a fancy new car to impress anyone and I just want safe and dependable transportation. My Town Car has 224,000 miles on it and it is just as good as new.

Bob Hritz

[bnz. 42]

Nothing about penis here. Try to drive a Mercedes and I guarantee you will spit on every other car. If comfort, German quality, btw safety as well does not matter to you, you will feel a different man anyway. Everywhere you go, people meet you as a completely different man. Always "Sir", always smiles, good service, etc. Try it

[Bob Hritz]

I would not be happy if my car defined me.

Bob Hritz

[TP Alexander]

Huh??

For me, nothing is an investment as I have no plan to sell my collection. When I pass to the Great Void, I do not care what happens to my stuff.

Bob Hritz

When I die, I do care what happens to my collection. I have always tried to buy the best items, as I appreciate something in great condition. As an amatuer curator and caretaker, I hope that these historical items will be taken care of and preserved into the future as I have attempted to preserve and care for them.

There are alcoholics. They destroy themselves and sometimes those in their lives around them. They can kill people behind the wheel of a car.

There are gambling addicts. They can destroy themselves and the lives of those around them. AND, they can empty out bank accounts and destroy the life savings and investments of those around them. They can steal from their places of work and incur felony convictions.

There are militaria addicts. There was someone at a local racetrack in Crete, Illinois, that was a custodian of funds for the horses owners. He stole the money out of different accounts and bought a crashed ME109 or a FW190, I can't remember which and it really doesn't matter. He bought a tank or some kind of half track. He bought guns and other militaria. He eventually got caught and everything got auctioned off and otherwise sold. How many other militaria addicts are out there that overspend to the ruinous disadvantage of their families because "they have to have it"?

I have a certain amount of money that I can spend on militaria. I keep money from my work in a separate account to pay for food and shelter. If I borrow money out of it to pay for a firearm or a piece of militaria, I pay the 'real life' account back. I had multiple copies of certain SS Division cufftitles. I finally came to my senses and sold or traded the doubles and triples that I had to get ones that I didn't have and to free up money to buy other things.
I wanted a Knight's Cross, the HOLY GRAIL of medal collector's, so bad I could taste it. For over 30 years, I tried to get one. I finally gave up, because I couldn't afford one and then had one walk in the door 2 years later. Do you think I paid $10,000 or $12,000 for it. No way! I didn't even think it was real when I first got it. It took 2 months before I found out that it was a 100% good piece. And please, don't think that I robbed a vet or a widow or any of their family. It was a guy that buys houses after their owners die and empty it out in hope of making a buck. Hell, if I'd known it was real, he would have gotten a lot more money for it. I wouldn't have minded but I try and be rational about the money that I spend on this hobby. Do you really think that Wolfe and Hardin pay $120,000 for those Oak Leaves & Swords that they turn around and sell for $120,000? No they don't, but they don't pay $400 for them either. And they're out to make money. I'm just trying to build up a nice collection of TR items that I appreciate for their own sake.
I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that you have to keep reality in sight and not go overboard or you're just an addict. You're not really getting enjoyment out of the hobby. You've just got an addiction and a monkey on your back.

My 8 cents (Adjusted for inflation!)
Tim

PS-The day this hobby quits being fun, I'm outta' here!
(And no, you can't have my stuff!)