An SS Reproduction That I Like!

[Luca Ongaro]

An American X story

That´s a true hero, Bob!!!
Anyone who knows anything about the birth and history of the USA, has to admire the heroic struggle of the indian tribes. They had their land stolen, they were murdered, they were betrayed and let down.
Holocaust in its true meaning.

I am totally agree with you Ludwig, nice picture Bob!

Why in the hell would anyone want a picture of this murderer hanging in their house?

Charles Betz

Mr Betz and all American friends, with all due respect, what about these two gentlemen whose innocent-looking portraits appear on the U.S. bills.

George Washington - Indians were defined as subhumans, lower than animals, compared them to wolves, "beasts of prey" and called for their total destruction.

Andrew Jackson - "supervised the mutilation of 800 or more Creek Indian corpses — the bodies of men, women and children that [his troops] had massacred — cutting off their noses to count and preserve a record of the dead, slicing long strips of flesh from their bodies to tan and turn into bridle reins."

Sorry to be go out of topic, Mr Lumsden about the portrait posted, is really well done and a nice repro. What is the market value for an original?

Luca

[Robin Lumsden]

All this over a painting??. Boy that Lumsden guy is such a trouble maker.

[Robin Lumsden]

Top cop..........

I've retired now Bill, so I'm just plain ol' Joe Public.

[Hasse.M]

Why do you say that?!? You don't think justice was served? Are you one of those nuts who says that the Holocaust never really occurred?

They got exactly what they deserved.

Justice? For some, yes absolutly. But have you ever thought about why many americans left the trial in protest?




Justice you say............................................... ....................

[Bob Hritz]

I've retired now Bill, so I'm just plain ol' Joe Public.

Congratulations oh your retirement, Robin. I hope you have many-many happy and healthy years to collect both your pension and wonderful relics.

Bob Hritz

[Mr. Scratch]

No offensive here but in a free world you don't have the right
to question anyone's "taste".

On the contrary, Sir. Living in a free world means that Mr. Betz can question anything he pleases.

In a free world, Mr. Lumsden has a right to put a painting of Himmler, or any other scoundrel, on his wall if he chooses.

In that very same free world, Mr. Betz has a right to question him, or even denounce him, for doing so.

Put to the bare bones, Betz simply asked Robin why he would want this painting of a mass murderer on his wall. It is a fair question; this is a forum for collectors of historical German WWII militaria, presuming that the collectors interests are of a historical nature, centered around genuine artifacts of the war. This particular painting is a modern reproduction; it has no historical value, so it follows that Robin must have some other reason for owning such a thing.

It is generally true that people who hang modern portaits on their walls do so out of some sense of admiration. So when someone hangs a newly-painted portrait of a political mass murderer on their wall, the natural assumption might be that the person approves of the painting's subject. Given this, it is perfectly reasonable for someone to ask for clarification.

In this case, Robin has provided that clarification. He is not motivated out of respect of Himmler, but out of professional and personal interest, having written many books on the subject, and being an expert on Himmler's organization.

There. Betz asked a fair question, he received a fair answer. What is there to all heated up over?

[Fritz]

On the contrary, Sir. Living in a free world means that Mr. Betz can question anything he pleases.

No, Sir. There is no accounting for taste. Mr. Lumsden has the right not to be questioned as far as his personal taste in art is concerned.

I will not queston Mr. Betz's taste nor will I question your's as I just don't have the right to do so.

Questioning something means to critize it.


Immer der Ihre

Fritz

[Mr. Scratch]

No, Sir. There is no accounting for taste. Mr. Lumsden has the right not to be questioned as far as his personal taste in art is concerned.

I will not queston Mr. Betz's taste nor will I question your's as I just don't have the right to do so.

Fritz

Webster's Dictionary sez:

"Right: (2) That which a person has just claim to: power, privilege, etc. that belongs to a person by law, nature or tradition [the right of free speech]"

Mr. Lumsden has no right to be free of questions or criticisms. None of us do.

Here in the United States - we are talking about "free" societies by your own criteria - there is a recognized right of free speech. That means that anyone is free to question or criticize anyone else, for whatever reason they choose. So long as that criticism is either truthful or a matter of opinion (ie. "taste"), there is little legal recourse for the person being criticized, other than to voice their own counter opinion; they simply have no right that superceeds the other person's right to free speech.

Now if you personally want to refrain questioning people in regards to matters of taste, be my guest. I don't know what you find to be so important about people's sense of "taste" that it should be placed beyond question; frankly, if you can't criticize a person's taste, then I wonder what you can criticize. Nonethless, whether you exercise it or not, you certainly have to right to do so if you choose. So does Mr. Betz.

[Carson]

Robin,

Awesome painting and thank you for sharing it. I was not even aware the original existed.

If you ever feel "guilty" over owning this piece, I would be happy to hang it over my mantle and have it join me for Thanksgiving dinner.....

There would be two turkeys in the room, and I would greatly enjoy both of them!

[Matthew S.]

Regardless of whether you personally would have said painting hanging on your wall, being shocked that someone else would and saying so on an SS forum makes as much sense as going into a gentleman's club and being offended by the lack of atire.

[Vid]

Hommel, did not only Himmler but Hitler. These paintings if they came to market? would be big dollars. But the reality is you cannot discount them.

They were done within the period and in a style of the period, that is what art is about. If all art was new and fit the current style or era, then its worthless. It takes years and decades, or centuries for the relevance of a particular piece to capture the imaginations of the people.

Great artists and composers are buried poor and in some far out corner in many cases, and then someone catches a glimpse and says "wow" check this out. and a century or two later they have a hit. Too late for them, but not for us.

Art is a taste, and that taste in many cases ties into an era, it has to. Sometimes I see a piece and get lost in it, gone for minutes, hours, and sometimes it haunts me for days until I have to go back to wherever I saw it and buy it so I can sit and look at it.

I do not know what you guys look at some times, but I have to wonder where your taste is. This is art, it is not original but not irrelevant and the piece speaks regardless, what it says to one person may differ from what it says to another, but it is art.

You want to spend 300k on a Campbell's soup can buy Warhol?? go for it, I want knock you to your face, the world is full of "me too" collectors, and soup cans are very nice. For .69 cents.

Don't let your emotions get in the way, for if you do? you lose sight of the big picture. And the big picture is so much more interesting and its open to interpretation, take what you want, you can walk away with something!. Or? Leave it, and close your mind.

[inimicus]

“With all respect if it isnt your taste then why look at this thread ???? In history belive me there was much worse then H.Himmler or A.Hitler, for 1 example the Russians were worse then both Himmler and Hitler put together.....

Best regards, Les.


As stated before, you post it, it’s up for comment. That said, my question was why hang a portrait of Himmler, a muderer, in your living room? The consenus here being, if it’s your house, display what you want. And I agree. I asked, why Himmler?

As for you statement, the Russians were worse than Hitler or Himmler. I’m not aware of the Russians gassing people on an industrial or any other scale. Retribution on their part against Germany was brutal and continued long after the war had ended. But what did Germany expect? As previously stated, I lived facing the Bear as a child in Germany.

For Himmler, and some of his minions, their SS legacy is memorialized in Le Paradis, Oradour sur Glane, Malmedy, Auschwitz, Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno, and Belzec, to name just a few. Deeds committed in those places overshadow the soldiers' duty honorably performed by other members of the Waffen-SS. This is history and not political correctness.

Collecting SS or any Third Reich memoribilia as a hobby for some, or a means of livelihood for others, is fine and is an enjoyable past time. But let's not forget what the totality of the Third Reich means and includes. For in not including all of it, we delude ourselves.

Charles Betz

well stated.

"industrial or other scale" mass murder of civilians is, obviously, god-awful and despicable - especially when it's state policy.

but so was us troops' monstrous, commonplace atrocities against philipinos during the insurrection early last century. and so were as the crimes of the caesars against christians, jews and others. they were perfectly staggering in their cruelty, and went on for many, many decades.

so then, because the actions of some in any of these cases "overshadow" the good or honorable behavior of criminals, should, collectors of, say, span-am war "horse soldier" material or roman coin collectors think twice about showing their collections? sounds a bit like guilt-by-association. it's worth noting that very sizable german units - like 6th ss mtn. div. "nord," were implicated in exactly no war crimes.

granted that the germans' crimes were mind-boggling and enormous, they were, as other posters have said, hardly unique. in sum, is hanging a picture of hh worse than displaying a bust of caligula? or for that matter robert strange mcnamara?

[Vid]

“With all respect if it isnt your taste then why look at this thread ???? In history belive me there was much worse then H.Himmler or A.Hitler, for 1 example the Russians were worse then both Himmler and Hitler put together.....

Best regards, Les.


As stated before, you post it, it’s up for comment. That said, my question was why hang a portrait of Himmler, a muderer, in your living room? The consenus here being, if it’s your house, display what you want. And I agree. I asked, why Himmler?

As for you statement, the Russians were worse than Hitler or Himmler. I’m not aware of the Russians gassing people on an industrial or any other scale. Retribution on their part against Germany was brutal and continued long after the war had ended. But what did Germany expect? As previously stated, I lived facing the Bear as a child in Germany.

For Himmler, and some of his minions, their SS legacy is memorialized in Le Paradis, Oradour sur Glane, Malmedy, Auschwitz, Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno, and Belzec, to name just a few. Deeds committed in those places overshadow the soldiers' duty honorably performed by other members of the Waffen-SS. This is history and not political correctness.

Collecting SS or any Third Reich memoribilia as a hobby for some, or a means of livelihood for others, is fine and is an enjoyable past time. But let's not forget what the totality of the Third Reich means and includes. For in not including all of it, we delude ourselves.

Charles Betz

So? attack the art and buy the artifacts, or make a living off those artifacts?. That's crazy. Everyone running around grabbing symbols of the same regime and you take issue with paint?.

Maybe you do not read the daily posts but many collectors are clueless, not only to the era but to what they are buying. So it is o.k to capitalize on other items but with art, you have to step back and wait for a stamp of approval.

Who gives that stamp? you?. So how do I get you to stamp my papers that say I am worthy of owning these items and to hang them?. Your going to make the judgment?.

You guys are really funny, but hypocrites run rampant, and this is Hypocrisy. Your starting to get on my nerves. I think you like it when collectors get taken when they buy bad items, then you have revenge for a period you feel unjust.

I do not need your approval, nor does Lumsden. You need to get your head examined, I think you have found yourself in a quandry where you are questioning yourself and trying to put it off on others to shift the guilt you feel for taking part in the era.

I do not need your approval. Nor do I appreciate your line of thought. And I certainly do not appreciate your remarks to legitimate collectors who have contributed to the the hobby and the understanding of the era.

Back up. Someone needs to put this thread down now. Its a topic that is heading into an area where the perverbial crap is going to hit the fan.

I do not understand why a moderator has not stepped in here, it is not going to be civil tomorrow. Might as well take the initiative here, be a leader.

JMHO