SS General's Collar Tabs

[Rick C]

I guess my hoped for discussion on actual tab construction and the nuances thereof is going no where so I guess I’ll close with the following comment.

On this subject of textbook and/or acceptable tabs, I’m thinking that, while I understand the collector mind set that there were a couple of accepted tab styles related to known “RZM manufacturers”, it should be noted the the RZM manufacturers were supplying the Allgemeine SS formations & NOT (necessarily) the Waffen SS and, I believe, there were a hell-of-allot more senior officers serving in the latter than in the former.

We all know that nothing ‘required’ the Waffen SS leadership from purchasing their rank insignia from “accepted” RZM sources so, the mentality of limiting one’s collecting interests or acceptability criteria to those few sources seems counterintuitive for a true ‘collector’ of Third Reich militaria given the breadth of sources utilized during their rein.

As in the case Heer General’s, Waffen SS senior officers (as well as other ranks) might well purchase from any of the ten thousand or so hand embroiderers throughout the Reich who produced rank insignia, as a cottage industry, for the uniform manufacturers or tailoring firms throughout the Reich. Thus, as is quite unmistakable when comparing General’s rank tabs of the Heer, there could be (and were likely) subtle differences based on particular style or artistic signature of the artisan/embroiderer tasked with the work. Variety (it seems to me) is what makes collecting any field or item interesting.

Would a dagger enthusiast only collect Ohlig, May & Vom Hau daggers or might they consider acquiring and appreciating the manufacturing and artistic features of other fabricators. Likewise, would a collector of caps only consider an eReL cap and disregard any from Clemens Wagner or Pekuro? Call me dumb but I tend to appreciate the ‘artistry’ of a variety of makers in these sub-categories of Third Reich militaria and wonder why SS collector seem fixated otherwise.

[bwanek1]

On this subject of textbook and/or acceptable tabs, I’m thinking that, while I understand the collector mind set that there were a couple of accepted tab styles related to known “RZM manufacturers”, it should be noted the the RZM manufacturers were supplying the Allgemeine SS formations & NOT (necessarily) the Waffen SS ...We all know that nothing ‘required’ the Waffen SS leadership from purchasing their rank insignia from “accepted” RZM sources...

Where is that documented? To my knowledge, all SS, Allgemeine and Waffen, were required by law to be supplied only by approved RZM manufacturers. Later, I understand that the SS contracted directly with some manufactrurers, but I believe they were all still controlled to RZM production standards. Is this incorrect?

...the mentality of limiting one’s collecting interests or acceptability criteria to those few sources seems counterintuitive for a true ‘collector’ of Third Reich militaria given the breadth of sources utilized during their rein.

As in the case Heer General’s, Waffen SS senior officers (as well as other ranks) might well purchase from any of the ten thousand or so hand embroiderers throughout the Reich who produced rank insignia, as a cottage industry, for the uniform manufacturers or tailoring firms throughout the Reich. Thus, as is quite unmistakable when comparing General’s rank tabs of the Heer, there could be (and were likely) subtle differences based on particular style or artistic signature of the artisan/embroiderer tasked with the work. Variety (it seems to me) is what makes collecting any field or item interesting.

The RZM was created, among other reasons, to eliminate the differences you describe. The items made in the cottage industry were still tigtly controlled and held to fairly exacting standards by the individual RZM firms which employed the individual sewers. There may be subtle differences between each artisan, but they should all still conform to the basic standards of those firms' approved styles.

Call me dumb but I tend to appreciate the ‘artistry’ of a variety of makers in these sub-categories of Third Reich militaria and wonder why SS collector seem fixated otherwise.

It is probably quite true that some original items, which, for whatever reason, differ from the well-documented patterns or standards, are passed over by most collectors these days. However, considering the number and increasing quality of fakes out there, that is simply being necessarily cautious. The alternative of accepting "variations" as original is a slippery slope. It will likely result in high-quality fakes sneaking into more and more collections.

You are welcome to collect whatever pleases you. However, you have to accept that others will be far more conservative and cautious than you and those "variations" will be looked at with a doubtful eye by most and you will have difficulty if/when you have a need to sell them.

[Rick C]

Where is that documented? To my knowledge, all SS, Allgemeine and Waffen, were required by law to be supplied only by approved RZM manufacturers.

Morning,

I think (?) it's common knowledge. I know I've read it in numerous references. The easiest to find in a pinch is Robin Lumsdens work 'The Waffen SS' where he's speakig about caps: "In February 1941, the manufacture and retailing of Waffen-SS peaked caps was freed from the RZM control. From then on the schirmmutze could be made to individual order by private hatters." (p 67-68)

He goes on to state regarding RZM & insignia that the Allgemeine SS always had RZM markings but "Those members of the Waffen-SS, however, which was in effect a State arm during World War 2, very seldom did." (p 103) He further states "By September 1944, pressures on the RZM had developed to such an extent that it was forced to terminate its involvement in the supply of insignia to the Waffen-SS." (p 106)

Leaving aside (my belief) that Generals could do just about any darn thing they wanted regarding their personal uniforms & 'kit', I think, were I (or you) to actually look around, I could find a number of references that that confirm Robin's statements above. Again, not to say Waffen SS senior officers couldn't badge out their uniforms from RZM suppliers, just that I don't think they 'had to' thus opening the door to variation in the (artistic) creation/existence of period insignia as in Heer General's tabs.

[Robin Lumsden]

I think the bottom line here is that most, if not all, senior SS officer insignia will conform to what is generally regarded as 'RZM standards'.

Whether or not they actually went through official RZM procurement channels isn't really the point. It's the quality of the product that counted.

During the war, the Waffen-SS (State organisation) was not obliged to go through RZM (Party organisation) channels to get its uniforms and insignia. In this respect, the Waffen-SS was akin to the Police. As we all know, the RZM supplied all Allgemeine-SS uniforms, but the Waffen-SS after 1940 usually got its uniforms from army stocks, or from its own factories.

And remember..............RZM doesn't always equate with best quality. Just look at daggers. Early (maker marked) political daggers are invariably of better quality that the later RZM marked ones.

During the war, the RZM was struggling to meet its supply obligations.....at the very time that the Waffen-SS was expanding beyond all recognition. Something had to give...........and it was the RZM.

[Rick C]

Whether or not they actually went through official RZM procurement channels isn't really the point. It's the quality of the product that counted.

Thus, my interest in a discussion of the nuances of how these insignia were supposed to be (or properly) made. My thought is that one should be looking at "the quality of the product" rather the the presence of an authentic paper tag or peer acceptance of minutia relating to compliant (exact) shape. While keeping in mind (as has been aptly pointed out) that variations may not be accepted by other collectors I still feel that there are quality pieces out there, showing the appropriate age, use & wear, that are worthy of serious consideration.

PS - Thanx Robin for piping in. RC

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Is there a concensus on the smaller versus the large size pips on these general colartabs?
Pieter.