SS General's Collar Tabs

[Rick C]

Looking at the latest posting here regarding “Brigadefuhrer Collar Tabs” I thought I would post the following.

I’ve reviewed the threads detailing what are considered viable, (acceptable) period examples of SS General’s tabs and I’m (somewhat) familiar with what folks here find to be period examples. That said, I’m well aware that you folks are a lot more experienced than I regarding this stuff, so I was hoping some aticulate insight into what to look for in evaluating these things.

There seems an acceptable “textbook” version of tabs on this forum and those examples without certain specific nuances of the leaves & acorns, while perhaps showing age and wear (and often looking pretty damn good) get reviewed (and dismissed) as fakes. The following is from GFM’s site - The Marshal’s Baton (hope you don’t mind Mike). The features of these tabs - the “bulbous” tip of the leaves & the scalloping of the leaf shape, the down turning of the lower leaf - I think everyone would accept as “textbook”.

[Rick C]

What I would like to see discussed in this thread is a description of how these were made. What was the template like? I’ve heard or read somewhere that the template was the leaves and that the acorns & pips were done, sort-of, freehand. I would also like to learn why some pips use that crinkly bullion and some don’t - I’m guessing this was an option chosen by the buyer. Any insight as to the backing material might be helpful too since I’ve seen the buckram backing as well as a white cloth type backing as being acceptable (in all ranks & services). In short, I’m hoping for a ‘primer’ on the construction & nuances of proper tabs and hoping this doesn’t fall into the old crack of we don’t want to help the fakers.

Finally, and additionally, why, when looking at period photos of SS Generals, do I quite often (in my humble view) turn up photos of SS General’s rank tabs that, by this forum’s experts, would be classed as fake or cheap, post war reproductions, lacking the detail & “features” of “known” original tabs. To that end, hoping to spur some discussion of this concept of good, “acceptable” (textbook) tabs, I will post a couple of photos of tabs that this forum (based on threads herein) would deem unacceptable in detail & nuances that would be written off here as fake.

One such example are those worn by Pohl - what I consider the ugliest set of chicken feet I’ve found yet (excuse the stock photo qualities snagged from the web - I’m sure there are better photos available). These show NONE of the features or characteristics that would be (seemingly) acceptable to twenty first century Third Reich collectors (on this forum), yet they were clearly acceptable to this guy.

[Rick C]

Another example of General’s tabs that would be deemed far from textbook known originals are these, worn by Fegelein. These clearly lack the detail & definition in the leaves (scalloped) our forum most often would find minimally acceptable. The center leaf appears oddly bloated while the lower leaf appears undersized and lacking basic leaf structure. The pip (Christ, is that a pip?) is way undersized and squeezed in at the bottom, proving (I’m guessing) that Fegelein’s are post war Paki.

[Rick C]

Kurt Daluege’s tabs in this photo, as above, seem to lack the “textbook” nuances as well. I see no downturn in the outer leaf, no scalloping to the leaves and thinner leaves to boot.

[Rick C]

While the “textbook” General’s tabs the certain characteristics (demonstrated by The Marshal’s Baton site’s photo array) it’s clear to me (at least) that there was a great deal of variation based (probably) on ‘where’ the uniforms may have been made and badged. Perhaps the Berlin area was the source of ‘uniformity’ in the ‘cottage industry’ of rank tab manufacture, giving us the scalloped leaves, bulbous tips and other nuances loved by forum members while the provinces & Großdeutsches Reich, having less ready access to templates and materials gave us the rounded leaves, less uniform leaf symmetry, the badly sized & placed pips and other features (obvious in period photos) that are less liked by the forum, yet real & period none the less.

The fact is, if you look at enough war time photos, you see all kinds of variations. Generals and other high ranked individuals had (in many likely cases) extensive wardrobes. Field uniforms, formal wear, office uniforms, uniforms from previous assignments, & units assigned to, purchased God knows where, uniforms made in Berlin, in Paris, in the Eastern Territories & allied countries and uniforms made up for promotions. These weren’t cookie cutter stuff. Any given General Officer could’ve had two or more residences during the period with complete wardrobes in each thus the likelyhood of their uniform insignia being “textbook” (by our standards) throughout their wardrobes is minimal at best. They could’ve been made anywhere & by anyone within this sphere of influence:

[Rick C]

I’m guessing that the bottom line is that the ‘cottage industry’ of rank tab manufacture may not have been as “textbook” as we collectors (60 years later) may wish to believe. Hell, I’ve even seen threads where folks are commenting on the correctness (or lack thereof) of leaf stems being cut flat or tappered... Perhaps we should try harder to think out of the box when we look at this stuff rather than exhibiting a ‘herd mentality’ and just jumping in with the standard “not for my collection” or “bad to the bone” mindset.

How about some ‘less than textbook’ examples?

Rick C.

[Mr.Jerry D]

I think you are certainly correct on your assumptions. I just looked at a few sets of Generals tabs this weekend that had charachteristicts to them I had never seen before. I liked them, but they were different from the "accepted" version in at least 6 ways. Of course hand made items will show a great variety of different design nuances. Youalso have to keep in mind that flash and light reflections and such can distort period photos a bit as well.


But I think here is the rub; if say 80% of them are "Textbook" and 20% are not, and the 20% closely resembles 90% of known fakes, where are you going to place your $2000-3000 bet?

Here is my last journey into the realm of non-textbook, these were worn, oxidized, had been sewn on. But on UV inspection, the center of the twist piping glowed like fiber-optic cables.

Sorry for the bad photos I am sure I was crying uncontrolably

[Bob Hritz]

There are some variations among RZM SS general's collar tabs. I am sure there are more than the 2 or 3 RZM accepted makers, but how far does one go for the variations. There is a cost vs risk factor.

On original photos, the developer is commonly also the 'photo retoucher' who makes sure the photograph is acceptable. If there is a large bright spot, from reflection of something shiney, the retoucher does his best to simulate the correct source of the bright spot, or hotspot, as called by photographers. This leads us to see what was never there.

Collecting SS generals collar tabs is usually restricted to those normally encountered, accepted RZM types.

Bob Hritz

[Robert H]

I would care very much from original photo modifications as this was absolute common in this period. I have studio potraits where even normal rune tabs are hand pianted.

[Rick C]

Hey Bob,

Any possibility of your showing the variations in tab styles you mention? Further reference points wold be great. Thanx, Rick

[Arran]

As mentioned, the pics of Pohl and Fegelein have had the insignia hand painted to reflect promotion or just to "clean up" the image. I believe variations are the result of different embroiderers rather than requests by the customer. The police Generals' tabs in the SS style do not seem to have been made by the same maker as most of the SS Generals' tabs seen, and do not appear to exhibit the downturned lower leaf...

[Bob Hritz]

These are by two different RZM authorized makers. The Brigadefuehrer, to the left, is of the most encountered pattern. The Obergruppenfuehrer tab, to the right is of a different maker. Note the stems for the acorns. This is visible in period photos and is not too uncommon. I don't have the third maker with the black highlight thread bordering the 'bar' that secures the stems of the oak leaves.

Bob Hritz

[clevischi]

This is my pair, that have been discussed here some time ago:

[Bobwirtz]

Here is an example of touch up photos:
If you notice the face expression and the cap, etc. you'll notice that it is the exact same photo taken of SS-Brigadefuhrer Wilhelm Mohnke as an SS-Standartenfuhrer and then the SS-Brigadefuhrer rank has been airbrushed in. This is a very common practice. Often times Knight's Crosses and other awards were also added in this manner.



Bob

[Rick C]

Bob - thanx for posting two of the styles most often encountered (& accepted). The more common version with bulbous, scalloped leaves & the less common rounded leaves having no real defined ‘bulbs’ at the tips.

The latter portion of my post/query - why period photos show allot more variety in rank tab shape & configuration than contemporary collectors seem to accept - is being addressed by way of ancient aryan photoshoppers at work. Rather like today’s ‘news’ (?) organizations owned by Rupert Murdoch photoshopping photos either because they’re too lazy or can’t find the propaganda images they need and thus just tweak what they have to rally & bend the sheep to their views. Very well.

What about the former discussion points? Basic construction techniques, use of crinkly bullion versus plain, were the acorns & pips done freehand or not (Bob’s rendering seems to indicate in his less common example showing stems to the acorns that this may well have been true)?

Any thoughts or actual evidence out there that might be shared?