"Pink" smock or not?

[NZMark]

The sewing is a very important detail in this discussion - multiple threads used, definitely of a factory production line construction method, exactly as we see in other WW2 German made uniform items. This begs the question - how many Birch smocks were actually produced/found?
The methodology of manufacture is far superior to what was on the market otherwise at that time - and also for the years after. Show me another SS reproduction smock which has such debate about it's originality.
The question has been asked (and quite rightly so) - why are these of such better quality than other period smocks?
Using tropical caps and tunics as an obvious example - when the contracts were opened out to smaller family run businesses to keep up with numbers required, the actual quality of many caps and tunics improved in both cut and sewing detail. They simply could not do a poor job as it was in their tailoring 'genes', so to speak. Some caps are now collected due to this quality feature - as are tunics.
It is not beyond any rational argument to suggest that these smocks were manufactured outside Germany by a contractor who just couldn't do a crappy job.
One point (not a theory) - someone commented earlier that it had taken over 100 pages for the those who believe in these smocks to put their case forward - and still not prove originality.
The converse is also applicable - after over 100 pages, the naysayers have also not disproved originality...(it's not original because I say so doesn't count).
Reading with interest.
Mark

[nutmeg]

The stamps further complicate the matter and right now are taken differently by both sides as well. I will say that I have put much thought into the question of if these stamps could (or were) have been planted as part of a very complex ruse to legitimize these when they were introduced. I can not see it.......we all can talk ourselves into anything or out of anything...so my search for information on these will continue.[/QUOTE]


It would have been a pointlessly over elaborate ruse in 1980 as these were wholesaled out for not a lot of money to start. Had that been part of some huge evil master plan wouldn't the word been out over the last 35 years? Not much point in reducing the value of original items by stamping them and then not advertising the fact.

BTW having run all this nice Birch camo material at great expense why would a faker stop at smocks? There are plenty of higher profit easier to make items that could have produced even from the scraps . No Birch helmet covers, face masks, zelts? For the little amount of labor involved the percentage of profit would have sure been higher then smocks. I recall some fake dot one sided helmet covers with brass rockers in the late 70s.

[NZMark]

Agree - I asked the question way back at the beginning - if the fakers made such a bloody good effort on everything else but 'got the colour wrong', why not simply run an improved colour batch? Where is 'the next generation' of these?
'Salting' original through reproduction is as old as Moses - but defacing 100% unquestionable items with reproduction stamps....?? That just devalues the original short and long term (and these guys only think short term - Since he has been accused of perpetuating this scam, is Mr. Floch is still making money out of these after +/-36 years?) In the pre-internet days the only benefit in doing so would be Ted telling Roger in a letter or on the phone that he thinks he knows of an original set of trousers with the same stamps - but how many collectors KNEW about the stamps, and of those that did - how many thought the stamps original? After all, these were being sold AS FAKES! Boy that helps the sale of those original camo trousers with the bogus stamps....
Doesn't make monetary sense to have done so - and I've looked at that argument too from as many angles as I can come up with.
Mark

[phild]

The two posts above 2072 and 2073 sum up most of my thoughts on these and is really the conclusions I came to shortly after buying mine and re-looking it....something I always do with any significant item that I buy or even find (in the old days) directly from vets.....its just instinct with me.

I have used the phase "as fakes, these make no sense" probably a dozen times on this forum since 2003 and the points discussed in the posts above explain why I say that.

We can and do look back at this 35 years later with everything and every kind of scam in the book used in this hobby for the last 35 years and it is easy to say that all of this was part of the scam......but while there may always be a first time, so much about these smocks is just too over the top for me to see this as a massive fake endeavor. This is the one advantage to having been involved in the hobby back then and much earlier that I feel offers an advantage over those getting into later.....that is understanding where the fakes were at any given time and seeing them progress over the years.

[CWP]

I see a lot of speculation that these pink smocks might have been made outside Germany and that is why they are not like other smocks.

Known original examples of foreign manufactured garments such as tunics made in Holland or caps made in France conform to standard patterns and are in fact finely made.

Speculation that these smocks are some kind of foreign manufacture is only speculation and nothing more. If there is any evidence for it, I haven't seen it. In fact, the quality of known original foreign manufactured garments makes this line of questioning seem less than logical, to me. Speculation may be fun, especially for those who own these dubious things... But speculation doesn't make them real, and it never will.

[NZMark]

Very true - that's why we are trying to use research and rational argument and logic.
Can someone, please, answer me - how does the placing of fake stamps in an original item linked to items only being sold as 'fakes' make the original item more valuable?
Mark

[nutmeg]

Franly, If they had all this ability why create a totally new color scheme when they could have just as well copied an existing pattern exactly? Why not make palm smocks?

Agree - I asked the question way back at the beginning - if the fakers made such a bloody good effort on everything else but 'got the colour wrong', why not simply run an improved colour batch? Where is 'the next generation' of these?
'Salting' original through reproduction is as old as Moses - but defacing 100% unquestionable items with reproduction stamps....?? That just devalues the original short and long term (and these guys only think short term - Since he has been accused of perpetuating this scam, is Mr. Floch is still making money out of these after +/-36 years?) In the pre-internet days the only benefit in doing so would be Ted telling Roger in a letter or on the phone that he thinks he knows of an original set of trousers with the same stamps - but how many collectors KNEW about the stamps, and of those that did - how many thought the stamps original? After all, these were being sold AS FAKES! Boy that helps the sale of those original camo trousers with the bogus stamps....
Doesn't make monetary sense to have done so - and I've looked at that argument too from as many angles as I can come up with.
Mark

[nutmeg]

I see a lot of speculation that these pink smocks might have been made outside Germany and that is why they are not like other smocks.

Known original examples of foreign manufactured garments such as tunics made in Holland or caps made in France conform to standard patterns and are in fact finely made.

Speculation that these smocks are some kind of foreign manufacture is only speculation and nothing more. If there is any evidence for it, I haven't seen it. In fact, the quality of known original foreign manufactured garments makes this line of questioning seem less than logical, to me. Speculation may be fun, especially for those who own these dubious things... But speculation doesn't make them real, and it never will.

It doesn't make them fake either because the non believers have not much more then speculation as well. To me the stamps though in real items combined with the 1947 date push it past speculation.

[Patty D]

In fact, the quality of known original foreign manufactured garments makes this line of questioning seem less than logical, to me. Speculation may be fun, especially for those who own these dubious things... But speculation doesn't make them real, and it never will.

The highlighted part above is just speculation is it not, on your part?

"But speculation doesn't make them real, and it never will"

No it won't that's why is you read the thread you'll see that people have been doing research. Flip your statement the other way and just because these have been the subject of speculation over 30+ years doesn't make them fake either.

[NickG]

Had the "Pinks" looked more like these ( various patterns! ) we would have had a much shorter discussion...
Poland 1944!

So I guess the faker really blew it with his camo color choice and multiple thread colors (if there was a faker)...the quest continues...
Honestly I see both sides of the argument...opponents and proponents...remains a mystery to me the existence of this "Birch" pattern!
but what awesome garments these are when viewed in color! (colorized! Ref: WW2 in color)
Different patterns in use within the same squad!

[CWP]

"If you were told that in a certain planet revolving around Sirius there is a race of donkeys who speak the English language and spend their time in discussing eugenics, you could not disprove the statement, but would it, on that account, have any claim to be believed? Some minds would be prepared to accept it, if it were reiterated often enough, through the potent force of suggestion."- J. B. Bury

I certainly see plenty of reiteration, here. But little evidence, and certainly no proof. The burden of proof is on the believer to prove that something is real. Showing pictures of helmet covers with different thread colors proves nothing. Is the hope that these will become real if enough ink is spilled?

[brooksbz]

Speculation that these smocks are some kind of foreign manufacture is only speculation and nothing more. If there is any evidence for it, I haven't seen it. .

These smocks are made unlike any other SS item hence they are not-German made. Owen has explained this point quite well.

[Glenn McInnes]

I see a lot of speculation that these pink smocks might have been made outside Germany and that is why they are not like other smocks.

Right,but this way of thinking can also be used to "explain away" anything that is fake.

I don't understand why someone won't get the fabric,dye or whatever tested on these so this pink smock can be put to bed for good...These discussions will never get anywhere as there are 2 sides who won't budge,the believers vs the non-believers.

The same as what Doug B did with the fake champagne SS helmet decals..SCIENCE!!







Glenn

[brooksbz]

I am agnostic and not in either camp!!! I put a lot of thought into an experiment. I am not even a mass-spectrogram would help determine anything. I contacted the University of Maryland it would take about $250 per sample and I think it would take about 10 samples for an experiment. The problem is the control sample. There is no known accepted original to be a control. Maybe Carbon dating would be the best way to tell but I don't know if the half-life of the Carbon-14 atoms would be in the error of margin. I don't think any quantitative chemistry techniques would answer any questions on this topic.

[NZMark]

Right,but this way of thinking can also be used to "explain away" anything that is fake.
I don't understand why someone won't get the fabric,dye or whatever tested on these so this pink smock can be put to bed for good...These discussions will never get anywhere as there are 2 sides who won't budge,the believers vs the non-believers.
The same as what Doug B did with the fake champagne SS helmet decals..SCIENCE!!
Glenn

I agree with the last part, Glenn - but lets flip this - what if everyone thought these were original. Let's pretend the burden is on those to who don't like these smocks to nail them as fakes...
Great photo, Nick!
Mark