"Pink" smock or not?

[NickG]

Are there any pinks on display at the Warsaw Uprising Musuem?

I will ask a contact in Poland...Again the amount of M42 smocks used in Warsaw by the resistance fighters is staggering. It was worn by every other member of their uprising it seems like ...
It became their resistance symbol these camo garments, caps adorned with Polish eagles. So much so that various resistance monuments show statues with these smocks being worn...

Warsaw obviously was the place for a large concentration of smocks in use (albeit captured) late in the war, well after the DOT uniforms were introduced... Intriguing!
These were either depot captured or perhaps even factory obtained??? ("Ost smock" idea), so foreign production in General Gouvernement? Plenty of SS industry there!

The first two image examples are colorized btw...Since the entire resistance movement capitulated no doubt 99.9% of their gear was either destroyed or returned to the Germans...Who knows? Maybe an angle to investigate if there are surviving examples that match the pink (Brick)? Certainly a good color for urban warfare!I also see blurred edge (Rauchtarn) smocks...various types...
Just another avenue to look into...(and left-over war stocks sent from Poland to USSR and smuggled from Czechoslovakia into Austria, never before encountered in the West before Floch)

[Marc Shaffer]

Thats a big problem.

There is NO good BBQ in Cali 199%.

It makes me sad.

Thats why I go to SMITTYs in Lockhart and get the best in the world.

owen

Step up from Kaliforna "BBQ", but still not real BBQ..... whole hog & slow and low hickory smoke. No nasty rubs or sweet sticky sauce to cover up bad meat/smoking.

Sorry for being off topic, but bad BBQ should be addressed immediately....

[nutmeg]

Like Historyguy, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I have enjoyed reading this thread.

But, I will also be the first, since it seems like everyone else is ignoring his work, to thank Historyguy for trying to break down the hundreds of posts and to try and simplify this thread. Good job Andy.

Next, and maybe I am trying to simplify this way too much, and the pro's and con's of this will fight more, but here is my opinion about the real pieces that had the same stamps as the pinks, that were all in Floch's cache. It is no secret that when you want to move a lot of fake items, that a seller will "salt" a group with a hand full of original pieces. Some are going to complain why ruin and expensive piece ( add unknown or movie stamps at the time when no one cared). It is simple economics. Spend a couple of thousand dollars ( if it was even that much during the time), add the same stamps that are in the questionable items, and make many more $1,000's of dollars selling the other pieces. This has been done many times and not just in the militaria collecting world. There used to be a guy who sold all those horrible fake "supposed" Vietnam patches with the letters of authenticity, back in the late 80's - 90's. Every time he sold a pile to an unsuspecting dealer, he always added a small percentage of original pieces, also stapled to his worthless COA's. Then when the unsuspecting buyers would put these out, everyone would see the dealers / collectors who were in the know, picking through the piles and buying the original stuff. It didn't matter that they were only buying the originals, what mattered was, that everyone else saw the lead collectors, buying out of these mass piles of garbage, so everyone else fell in line and had to buy them also. So the faker, spent maybe a couple of hundred dollars buying real stuff and adding to his piles, then made $10,000's selling all his fakes. In my mind it meant he sacrificed a little to make a lot.

Again, no dog in this fight, just trying to use a little common sense about how fakers do what they do.

Bob, Sorry, I disagree with that completely. First of all in the days before the internet if you marked a few good items there would be no realistic way to spread the word. How would you do it, publish it in an article, set up a display at show with examples? These were not marketed like that , they were spread near and far among many wholesale sellers and dealers , wasn't like Floch had piles of them on his table at a show next to examples of a marked palm smock. He just sold them for quick money, plain and simple. If that was part of an incredibly elaborate plan 35 years ago why is it just known now? You'd think after 35 years and even the years of this thread it would have come to light. It didn't because until this thread the markings in the Birch smock were not in the limelight, they were just some kind of unknown markings. I used to check in on this thread once every few months (and I didn't own a Birch smock) just to see if any new info had been revealed when I saw the comments about the markings in the palm smock. Remembering the one I bought way back from Bruce had some kind of Russian markings I decided to check and they turned out to be the same ones . Russian markings in clothing in the 1980s were hardly a selling point , I remember, I was collecting then. If it was a choice between two identical items with and without the one with the Russian stamps wasn't picked.

Some are marked, some aren't , why not mark them all if it's part of a plain. Why not mark all the DAK caps he sold if coming from a Russian stiudio was a great selling point? To me it doesn't make sense.

[NickG]

I am waiting for a reply from Poland...I have asked where all these smocks (and caps) came from...Factory raided? depot?

[nutmeg]

So true!

As for the hbt pockets being off in some peoples view ......and I don't have a strong opinion about it as I know a lot of variations of HBT can be found from WWII and that the SS may have had a contract(s) for a spec of HBT.....but that would not have been sent off somewhere to be used in a smock pocket!

I think that you mentioned about 10 pages back regarding the fact that not ALL accepted SS smocks had hbt pockets at all. I also have seen other material used, and I think that the accepted original on Peter V.;s site does not have hbt pocket bags........so is the rule that if they do have hbt it must be rush green hard finished hbt? I mean that as a joke.

To me the HBT discussion is a red herring. If these are made outside of Germany I would expect it to be different. It's almost the same and it's the same weight and thickness as I have shown in previous photos, just a different color. In a wartime situation you use the goods that are available and the grey ones are close enough.

[NickG]

OK I have a reply! (from a top collector in Poland)
__________________________________________________ ________

All smocks that i have owned from home army fighters in warsaw 1944 are texbook german made one lookers ,and they come from a depot in warsaw that was used for Wiking and totenkopf units on ost front at this time of 1944

Here a photo of a cap and smock ,smock is in late hbt ,i have never seen here (Poland) or in Czech a pink smock since early 90 's ,and no one has one here from so called woodwork or any film studio or theater here ,and we have a lot of superb originals for films......;-)

here in Poland there was even a special army unit in 1945 that had collected stuff for future war films ;-)

[NickG]

HBT smock from Warsaw 1944...Note Polish eagle button! and HBT pocket bags...

[NickG]

Note Polish button!
Polish connection might be a dead end after all...Late war HBT...but the pictures do reveal many types of smocks in use, not conclusive,
to include even Blurred edge...Still worth researching! All apparently depot captured (like what happened in Prague...SS tropical kit)

[RobertE]

I agree with Nutmeg. The notion that unknown cyrillic markings would be a form of salting a bogus load of smocks in 1980 makes no sense to me whatsoever.

The purpose of adding (salting) a grouping with real items is to make it more authentic, not spread confusion with unknown and baffling markings. Bus tickets, real orders, money, authentic throw-away insignia, sure - those are real things added to bogus materials all the time. But completely unexplained, complex markings?

However, if that was the purpose, the markings should have been added to them all, not to mention the other bulk lots.

Let me ask you this: Floch uncovered huge lots of items, as did other bulk equipment and uniform movers. Name ONE OTHER GROUPING, from any bulk uniform seller, where this technique was considered a sound practice and actually done.

ONE OTHER GROUP - should be easy. I am talking consistent use of the same UNKNOWN stamps in a group of identical items that number in the hundreds. Not a snuck in RB number or a single gabardine / Italian wool cap with fake museum markings, but an entire group of identical items with identical markings. I won't even ask you to do it for a group that emerged 15 years before the internet became a primary seller tool.

s/f Robert

[kammo man]

Smock and cap are amazing pieces of history.


Robert,

Looks like you have not handled many original SS cammo items either.

You post like you don't want to learn about real and only know fake pieces.

Disco asked you a simple question about this and you skirted the answer.

weird.

owen

[RobertE]

Still worth researching! Note Polish button!
Polish connection might be a dead end after all...Late war HBT...but the pictures do reveal many types of smocks,
to include even Blurred edge.. So all depot captured (like what happened in Prague)

Nicely done, Nick, and thanks for posting. I like that you published unfavorable findings from this Polish connection, that being that they have not seen these smocks. The truth does not always support theories - but research continues!

Interesting about the units collecting German items in 1945 for post-war movie use.

s/f Robert

[RobertE]

Smock and cap are amazing pieces of history.


Robert,

Looks like you have not handled many original SS cammo items either.

You post like you don't want to learn about real and only know fake pieces.

Disco asked you a simple question about this and you skirted the answer.

weird.

owen

And what would that one question have been, Owen?

s/f Robert

[NickG]

Nicely done, Nick, and thanks for posting. I like that you published unfavorable findings from this Polish connection, that being that they have not seen these smocks. The truth does not always support theories - but research continues!

Interesting about the units collecting German items in 1945 for post-war movie use.

s/f Robert

About the Minsk stamps this top notch Polish collector also commented, as follows:
_________________________________________

well .........i tell you only that i have never seen this stamps on any of the original item that come from russia i do have a SSm43 tunic with moskow studio stamp from MOSFILM,
i do know anothers from leningrad film LENFILM ,never seen any Minsk stamps in any legit russian filmstudio find....

i never liked this Pink smock buttons holes..I feel they are made in modern post war way to me ,strange thread used in construction and the sewing to not show age here i mean the are not deep sink in to cloth as you can see on war time uniforms

abaut 10-15 years ago Maclolm Fisher of Regimentals was selling good repros of m43 SS tunics and ss panzer wraps with even more rare stamps of Alma Ata a film studio that was moved in war time in to Kazachstan if i remember correctly...
________________________________________

But that was 10-15 years ago...2000's not in the 1980's when these smocks surfaced...we all know that even Czech Statni stamps are faked but that is also a more recent development...not 25-30 years ago!!!

[Jeff V]

Smock and cap are amazing pieces of history.


Robert,

Looks like you have not handled many original SS cammo items either.

You post like you don't want to learn about real and only know fake pieces.

Disco asked you a simple question about this and you skirted the answer.

weird.

owen

Owen, I should suspend you for this one. It does not matter how many smocks Robert has examined. He is free to add his opinion same as you or anyone else. Again, I will ask to discuss the item not each others experience. If you have nothing to add to the discussion of the item don't post anymore.

[NickG]

Here is the Warsaw SS depot in 1944 being raided...emptied out by resistance fighters!
(he just sent me this amazing image! Probably not before seen in the West!)

Piles and piles of SS gear, smocks towering 6 feet high! Staged outside for quick distribution!
Looks like the depot had a railroad yard/tracks right next to it! (for logistical purposes)
or is it a factory with a railhead? Boggles the mind! Obviously M44's never really replaced smocks totally!

Could Floch's cache have looked like this? or? The quest for answers continues!