"Pink" smock or not?

[Disco Partisan]

if one came in at a price I could afford, I would definitely consider it, no question.

with having "good gut feeling that these are correct and original" how much are you willing to pay for a pink smock? the price of a good fake?

[RobertE]

Disco not Owen. Can you tell how many smocks and their variations have you ever had?

No, and I won't get into a contest with you. Your statement was "helmets are not cloth...cloth collectors feel by hands a lot...with the sense trained by handling originals."

Experience is valuable, but I don't equate that to some sixth sense about cloth. The Germans used a tremendous amount of variation in all uniform production - that I know as do most long-time collectors.

s/f Robert

[Marc Shaffer]

Meet me at the SOS and I will give you a BBQ sandwich with a COA that actually means something valid.

Your COA is a fake. Ya'll in Kaliforna don't know what BBQ is.

[Disco Partisan]

No, and I won't get into a contest with you. Your statement was "helmets are not cloth...cloth collectors feel by hands a lot...with the sense trained by handling originals."

Experience is valuable, but I don't equate that to some sixth sense about cloth. The Germans used a tremendous amount of variation in all uniform production - that I know as do most long-time collectors.

s/f Robert

experienced ss-camo collectors do not have sixth sense about it but you do as you see things they don't

[RobertE]

You'll be OK, DP. I won't take the bait. I am still waiting for the experienced SS collectors to identify the real HBT in the pocket line up - that was very telling.

Based just on pictures, the pocket HBT was so deemed way off. Based on those same pictures, not one self-appointed expert could identify the HBT in the birch smocks from others.

I haven't done the analysis on the materials that Phil, Chris, Don and others have, so maybe you are confusing their good work with mine - I don't claim to be an expert. I am experienced in collecting, however, and will continue to participate in the discussions - I don't need a pedigree.

s/f Robert

[Disco Partisan]

maybe then Patty D would share how many original smocks he put his hands on in his life time?

Wow that counts for a lot then. They MUST be fake. If we all collected based on that idea (the "textbook" or nothing method) then where would we be..

A lot of the "big boys" as you put it handled (and collected) CR SS helmets, they were once "textbook" originals - just look now

Just because something has been "known" (very different to proven!) amongst collectors for a long time as fake (or original, as above) does NOT mean it actually is, and not open to further investigation. Fact.

[RobertE]

Good luck on the contest. I'll let the "textbook kings" remain on their throne.

I have also emailed the museums in Moscow, Minsk, and St. Petersburg. I'll be visiting the museums in Leningrad again this summer, and will continue researching at that time.

I was in Leningrad when the wall came down, and spent considerable time in the military museums there - I tripled my assault badge collection and saw some fantastic material (and fantasy material). I'll let you know what I find out.

s/f Robert

[Disco Partisan]

Good luck on the contest. I'll let the "textbook kings" remain on their throne.

I have also emailed the museums in Moscow, Minsk, and St. Petersburg. I'll be visiting the museums in Leningrad again this summer, and will continue researching at that time.

I was in Leningrad when the wall came down, and spent considerable time in the military museums there - I tripled my assault badge collection and saw some fantastic material (and fantasy material). I'll let you know what I find out.

s/f Robert

Robert, you will find NOTHING in favor of these smocks. Zero. Because it is
Fake smock with Fake stamps, with Fake story from the Faker = 100% fake.
Not just "IMO" but in fact. Sorry to ruin your pink dream

[phild]

Your COA is a fake. Ya'll in Kaliforna don't know what BBQ is.

I heard that!

[phild]

Experience is valuable, but I don't equate that to some sixth sense about cloth. The Germans used a tremendous amount of variation in all uniform production - that I know as do most long-time collectors.

s/f Robert

So true!

As for the hbt pockets being off in some peoples view ......and I don't have a strong opinion about it as I know a lot of variations of HBT can be found from WWII and that the SS may have had a contract(s) for a spec of HBT.....but that would not have been sent off somewhere to be used in a smock pocket!

I think that you mentioned about 10 pages back regarding the fact that not ALL accepted SS smocks had hbt pockets at all. I also have seen other material used, and I think that the accepted original on Peter V.;s site does not have hbt pocket bags........so is the rule that if they do have hbt it must be rush green hard finished hbt? I mean that as a joke.

[kammo man]

ALL I am saying is that it is a theatre appropriate color based on proven Russian use. That's all. Not been illustrated-compared before!

SS cammo jackets are also perfect for fighting in Africa on the brown side.
And guess what some were used.
But does that prove anything ?

[kammo man]

So true!

As for the hbt pockets being off in some peoples view ......and I don't have a strong opinion about it as I know a lot of variations of HBT can be found from WWII and that the SS may have had a contract(s) for a spec of HBT.....but that would not have been sent off somewhere to be used in a smock pocket!

I think that you mentioned about 10 pages back regarding the fact that not ALL accepted SS smocks had hbt pockets at all. I also have seen other material used, and I think that the accepted original on Peter V.;s site does not have hbt pocket bags........so is the rule that if they do have hbt it must be rush green hard finished hbt? I mean that as a joke.

Its not much of a joke.

Its a fact that the NON German made PINK has the wrong HB as accepted among SS clothing collectors.

[Bob Chatt]

Like Historyguy, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I have enjoyed reading this thread.

But, I will also be the first, since it seems like everyone else is ignoring his work, to thank Historyguy for trying to break down the hundreds of posts and to try and simplify this thread. Good job Andy.

Next, and maybe I am trying to simplify this way too much, and the pro's and con's of this will fight more, but here is my opinion about the real pieces that had the same stamps as the pinks, that were all in Floch's cache. It is no secret that when you want to move a lot of fake items, that a seller will "salt" a group with a hand full of original pieces. Some are going to complain why ruin and expensive piece ( add unknown or movie stamps at the time when no one cared). It is simple economics. Spend a couple of thousand dollars ( if it was even that much during the time), add the same stamps that are in the questionable items, and make many more $1,000's of dollars selling the other pieces. This has been done many times and not just in the militaria collecting world. There used to be a guy who sold all those horrible fake "supposed" Vietnam patches with the letters of authenticity, back in the late 80's - 90's. Every time he sold a pile to an unsuspecting dealer, he always added a small percentage of original pieces, also stapled to his worthless COA's. Then when the unsuspecting buyers would put these out, everyone would see the dealers / collectors who were in the know, picking through the piles and buying the original stuff. It didn't matter that they were only buying the originals, what mattered was, that everyone else saw the lead collectors, buying out of these mass piles of garbage, so everyone else fell in line and had to buy them also. So the faker, spent maybe a couple of hundred dollars buying real stuff and adding to his piles, then made $10,000's selling all his fakes. In my mind it meant he sacrificed a little to make a lot.

Again, no dog in this fight, just trying to use a little common sense about how fakers do what they do.

[kammo man]

Robert, you will find NOTHING in favor of these smocks. Zero. Because it is
Fake smock with Fake stamps, with Fake story from the Faker = 100% fake.
Not just "IMO" but in fact. Sorry to ruin your pink dream

Its a nice bad Pink dream.......

More like a nightmare

[kammo man]

Your COA is a fake. Ya'll in Kaliforna don't know what BBQ is.

Thats a big problem.

There is NO good BBQ in Cali 199%.

It makes me sad.

Thats why I go to SMITTYs in Lockhart and get the best in the world.

owen