"Pink" smock or not?

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Chris , In my conversions with Mike that's why it wasn't included in his research.

He was close to Borsarello and it was discussed. There was no shortage of the " provenance " behind these pieces.... Anything to move them .........they didn't sell them selves.
Cheers Steve

Thanks Steve,

Perhaps the most revealing post on this epic "Brick" smock thread so far, provenance=Floch. Can confirm they did not sell themselves back in the early 80's.

First time i saw a "Brick" at a show back in the 80's it was for $500us, looked pretty cool. Next year same dealer had one, (maybe the same ?) he says to me $350... wished i grabbed one back then

& Chris, while both are good movies, the final attack in "Zulu" resembles "Fury's" final attack in that it was all Hollywood "Zulu Dawn," (Isandlwana) is much more accurate, but it has its "Hollywood" moments too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ugonbYYVfs

cheers
Tim

[Tim O'Keefe]

But, after eight years and 1,900+ posts, the only two absolute, proven facts are 1) These are not of WWII German manufacture, and 2) They first entered the market via Johannes Flock in 1980/81.
<O</O
That is it. Everything else is just opinion, hearsay and specious reasoning.

(Have I presented a “good/ proper/ balanced analysis” ?)

Enjoyed your thoughts...

What are your thoughts on the fact that at least two 100% original smocks (not "Brick") have been found so far with the same Russian stamps including the 1947 date ? one at least from a different source ? (maybe i missed this ?)

[90th Light]

Hello 90th Light. Per Historyguys summation on his reference to your post #154. Can you provide the name of the brand of the elastic waistband you state is in the Pink/Brick? Have any tests been done to determine if the elastic is rubber based or oil based(no rubber)? Providing this info might help your case. Best, Bill

Hello Bill,

I have never had a piece of it to test. Unless I cut up my smock.

However, others have found out more about this than me. Hopefully they might be prepared to post what they have in their possession, have found out or are sitting on,

Chris

[NickG]

In additions to what I posted in post number 1923,
we also have to consider units like Nick has already identified.
These guys would have needed to procure SS camo clothing at a time of shortage/ growing production challenges in Germany.
Many would need camo to fight in "Birch" forests,
Chris
p.s. and we have not yet considered Lativan SS units plus other SS units from occupied former Soviet states of the USSR or other parts of the Third Reich

Here's a possible area of investigation...just throwing it out there...
Since we are not sure such smocks ( if indeed real) have been issued, as no clear photos have been discovered and lets say they have perhaps only been used (and made) in the East, (No West examples were ever observed nor captured, no Western campaign bring back examples),
have we explored the Warsaw Uprising?
It took place in late 1944 with an enormous amount of late M42 smocks being captured and used by resistance fighters, and well documented in period photographs...
Maybe worth going through? Many images are posed with good details... (still hard to tell in B/W images though...)

[nutmeg]

They must have gotten into a depot

[nutmeg]

Enjoyed your thoughts...

What are your thoughts on the fact that at least two 100% original smocks (not "Brick") have been found so far with the same Russian stamps including the 1947 date ? one at least from a different source ? (maybe i missed this ?)

The planetree I have was bought from Floch by Tony Gordon , not sure when (maybe the early 80s) and was one of 4 planetrees that he sold to Bruce Herman in 2006 (maybe 2003 not sure anymore) when I bought it. I think he said the others had film markings but he can't remember and neither can I . He thinks he might have sold two of them to Steve Wolfe. He said Gordon had a number of others he had sold previously and these were the very last. The one Bill Shea had , no idea where it came from. There's also a pair of dot trousers with just the red and green marks.

[NickG]

They must have gotten into a depot

Yes no doubt! Everybody used them with matching caps...many, many, it was their main "look" throughout the battle....any color clues?
Any "Pinks" that might have been used in that battle? and remained East (in a Depot? and perhaps made in the East too?)

[NickG]

Maybe Polish members can look into that angle?

Look at the Blurred edge "Rauchtarn" parka even worn by this Polish resistance fighter!
Try finding period images of those in wear!

[RobertE]

In black and white photos, it may be possible to spot the "extended" portion of the print. It is unique to the brink smocks, and may appear in photos if the angle is right.

s/f Robert

[jacquesf]

Does anyone really think that any ss item that had half a chance to be original would be deemed and sold as a fake for all these years. That against every effort being make to sell fakes as originals , by just about everyone.

These have been through the hands of the "whose who" of SS and other collectors and dealers and they have not attempted to profit from it for all these years. Very strange? J

[RobertE]

Does anyone really think that any ss item that had half a chance to be original would be deemed and sold as a fake for all these years.... Very strange? J

You mean like printed sleeve eagles?

s/f Robert

[jacquesf]

You mean like printed sleeve eagles?

s/f Robert

and how was the printed sleeve eagle authenticated? Not 130+ pages and posts off off internet speculation?

[RobertE]

What difference does that make? How much discussion that takes place before an item is authenticated means very little.

If it did, you'd have to add all the discussions on all forums (not just WAF), gun and major military show discussions, and exchanges between countless collectors.

Those eagles were controversial. and many hours spent debating them - in fact other printed SS insignia are also the subject of lengthy threads. Until just about a decade ago, major chunks of major European collectors wouldn't touch Dachau insignia - it was fake to them.

What dealers deem original is to be considered, but is certainly not the only metric. Let's not forget how "those in the know" and "experts" endorsed the champagne decal.

s/f Robert

[Patty D]

The planetree I have was bought from Floch by Tony Gordon , not sure when (maybe the early 80s) and was one of 4 planetrees that he sold to Bruce Herman in 2006 (maybe 2003 not sure anymore) when I bought it. I think he said the others had film markings but he can't remember and neither can I . He thinks he might have sold two of them to Steve Wolfe. He said Gordon had a number of others he had sold previously and these were the very last. The one Bill Shea had , no idea where it came from. There's also a pair of dot trousers with just the red and green marks.

I think this (highlighted) was a key find that has not been discussed much. See Nick's post 1107. Why do the 'dot' trousers have the same red circle and green triangle stamps as found in the "brick/birch" smocks - BUT not the "film stamp"??

Perhaps these stamps were initially added upon capture - various nations did this in a similar way with their captured weapons - and subsequently the dot trousers never made it to the film company/warehouse/supplier etc, and hence never got the "film stamp"??

[Disco Partisan]

if you read the previous old threads on the pink subject you would agree that all big boys in this hobby including most experienced ss camo collectors that handled and examined hundreds and hundreds of original ss smocks - none of them liked the pink smock