Originally posted by Disco Partisan
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s/f Robert
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And I reserve the right to call out unsupported speculation for what it is - guesswork. Pushing opinion as fact doesn't work with me.
s/f Robert -
Hi Disco,Originally posted by Disco Partisan View Post
I see you live in Moscow . Isn't possible for you to visit the museum and see what they have on hand and what records they have?
That might go a long way to answering some questions. Would they be cooperative?
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There is a lot of supposition and guess work from the "pro" side as well.
Ad hoc assumption: suppose the garment wasn't made in Germany, then we can guess that materials could be different, construction could be different, colors could be different, patterns could be different, etc.
Ad hoc assumption: the guy selling his on the add posted earlier is telling the truth, therefore the Moscow film studio connection is confirmed by a source other than Floch.
Where is the level of proof many on the forum demand on other unknown pieces : period photos, vet provenance, etc?
something tells me Floch has the answers, but will everyone believe him?Comment
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The SS by Pohl did an amazing work on the camouflage, they field-tested different patterns and from late 30s up until the Leibermuster in 44/45 they experimented- and developed a huge amount of different camopatterns.
- Block pattern
- Palm
- Plane tree / overprint of an early Oakleaf - nr. 1 - 6
- Oakleaf
- Rauchtarnmuster
- Dot pattern
- Leibermuster.
They had in the beginning of the war a strict control of the pattern- and the cloth, later they were in shortage of quality cloth and had to adapt to inferior cloth and in the end - herringbone twill. They used captured Italian camo to make smocks and in Norway they made Oak camo of inferior cloth quality and of a different size both in with and length. Do you really believe that it was only happening in occupied Norway?
Vet bring-backs would not be an option regards the Norwegian camo because it was used at the eastern front, most of the parkas were not even issued, thats why we have surviving Parkas in Norway. I know its a side-track, but do the nay-sayers believe in the Norwegian Oak? I think that no experienced collector outside Scandinavia have ever handled the items.
My only intention is, keep an open mind and stick to facts.
Best, TomComment
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Tom,
We do have open mind
we also have too many fakes in this hobby
Things need to be proven original to be accepted as such
Same as it was with the Norwegian oak
You found a rock-solid proof and now it is original
Pinks do not have any proof so farComment
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Many think it was not made in Germany. Much of the "against" argument is all the materials do not match what was made in Germany.Originally posted by juvatwad View Post
Undetermined if he is telling the truth at this point. However, he says his came from the Moscow Museum in 1991 not a film company. Read post 810 published in 2013 that discusses Lenfilm getting theirs in 1947 , 2 years before the first visible date 1947 specimen of a planetree surfaced.
I doubt it . Frankly, if there is a picture of Floch standing next to the bales being unloaded from trucks marked "Minsk -Films" the "against" would not believe. Several are so opposed no proof of any kind would change their minds , an issue of reputation and pride I suppose.Comment
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The rock solid proof might be in the museum in your own city. Some reason you are unable to go there??????????????Originally posted by Disco Partisan View PostComment
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I am not going there as I am sure the seller tells the fake storyOriginally posted by nutmeg View PostHi Disco,
I see you live in Moscow . Isn't possible for you to visit the museum and see what they have on hand and what records they have?That might go a long way to answering some questions. Would they be cooperative?Comment
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Originally posted by juvatwad View Post
Is it really that different from a known German made type 2, SS smock ?
Sure the camo pattern is different in several ways from Oak A & B (some colours match exactly) but German camo patterns were evolving at the time.
And the sewing is not what one could cite as "concentration camp quality" being of a higher quality. Thus what if they were made in a factory that had not been bombed heavily ?
Beyond that what is really different ???
When I showed my "Birch" smock to people qualified in textiles. They were the first to alert us to the use of later war, ersatz, raw, rough, blended cloth with a lot of Flax or even Hemp in it.
The Germans had to use this type of cloth in the period 1943 to 45.
It is those who have repeatedly said they must be fake, who have claimed things are so different from what the Germans used during WW2.
However, when one studies the "Birch" in detail and talks to people qualified in textiles, things come up trumps in line with what was used during WW2 such as the HBT the pockets are made from.
What worries me in all of this is that those who say they are fake because they are different do not seem to have studied much in any depth or detail at all. Yet they keep reciting many reasons off nothing more than the top of their heads,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 12-20-2015, 06:21 PM.Comment
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Originally Posted by nutmeg View Post
Hi Disco,
I see you live in Moscow . Isn't possible for you to visit the museum and see what they have on hand and what records they have? That might go a long way to answering some questions. Would they be cooperative?
I am not going there as I am sure the seller tells the fake story
Really? You don't want to know for certain if the museum ever had/has and of these smocks? Don't sound like the answer of someone who really wants to know the truth. Frankly, I'd love to see what they had in their storage areas anyway.
Anyhow, I have emailed them , we'll see if they reply. If they don't I have connections with major US museums who can ask for me as well. I don't give up easily.Comment
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I just spoke with the curator at West Point , no SS smocks their collection. I will check through the rest US Army museum system to see what they have.Comment
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You might be right if they reply at all. One of the problems with these forums is that collectors are happy to sit in front of their computers and speculate but few are willing to really look for hard answers if it involves more then that. If I lived in Moscow I would have been through many of the museums storage vaults by now. I have done so in the US .Originally posted by Disco Partisan View PostComment
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Why would he be your servant and do your bidding ?
Better you jump on a plane and do your own dirty work for your new fake jacket
Disco
Dis Engage this circle jerk
It's pointless
Guys who collect and believe in fakes are lost souls
OwenComment
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That military museum in Moscow is starting to sound a lot like the cheese shop in Monty Python;Originally posted by Disco Partisan View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJhq9eq_eJg
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 12-20-2015, 06:54 PM.Comment
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