"Pink" smock or not?

[pete]

YUGOSLAVIA could easily have been the "window" of import, due to how things worked in Yugo that was much different then other Eastern countries, but they did not come out of Yugo, no one has ever seen them and they are not in any Partisan film.

Pete

[Disco Partisan]

Well, it should not be hard to find out. I am skeptical at this stage.

However, let's see what the seller of the smock says and even the museum itself.
Could be interesting even if there is no "Birch" ("Pink") at all.

However, we will not know if we do not ask,

Chris

p.s. any other museums in Russia got SS smocks/ camo of any kind ?

oh God you can't be serious - anonymous crook sells fake pink online and you believe everything he tells you !?

[brooksbz]

YUGOSLAVIA could easily have been the "window" of import, due to how things worked in Yugo that was much different then other Eastern countries, but they did not come out of Yugo, no one has ever seen them and they are not in any Partisan film. Pete

I figured GP would know because he has been dealing since the early 1960's and he was about the only dealer with connections into that side of world at the time. I had no pink smock dealings with him. I did not get mine from him and he had no reason to make a false statement. If you know him he can be very transactional and rather "matter of fact". I always respect his opinion. Especially back then, because he always knew where the fakes came from, especially the very early ones.

[NickG]

The HBT (pockets) in the birch smocks has now been posted repeatedly - it was dismissed based on pictures, but the experts now can't tell from the pictures what is "textbook" and what is birch. Now it turns out to be used in items deemed original - again, this is a fact which is dismissed with opinion.

s/f Robert

That's what I was getting at with my pocket pictures quiz....The blurred edge parka with HBT pocket bags is on Shea's site and the odd looking pocket btw is from that Norwegian produced Parka...an "apples to pears" comparison, but I just through that in there to make it interesting. but no one took the bait...

[nutmeg]

"Pink smock from Moscow military museum" is the biggest lie in this thread so far - of the same degree as my recent joke about the SS-NKVD patch. Seriously




"MINSK-FILM" never existed. That name is FANTASY. New evidence has only revealed that the stamp on pink smocks is fake.

I think everyone here is speculating when some of these things can be checked. I emailed the museum in Moscow asking if they had any of these at any point and if so what is the source. I sent pictures as well . We'll see what the response is if there is one. I also emailed the seller of the one online to see if there was any paperwork regarding history as proof of origin. If I lived in Moscow I would have been over there by now to check this out! I'm also emailing some friends who work at US military museums to see what they might have.




It hasn't. Because something can't be easily found with an internet search does not mean it can be totally dismissed out of hand. How then can you account for this marking showing up in two original smocks (and the red and green marks in a pair of dot trouser) ? What would be the point of stamping this in totally original accepted items in 1980 when such markings were more of a minus then a plus? The mark could refer to a warehouse or storage area or a number of other things. Could mean destination Minisk for film use in 1947. The stamp may have only been used for that one month then changed to something else. If the markings were fake and added as a sale ploy why not add them to only a small portion of the tunics rather then all? Why aren't these marks in other items Flock sold if that was a sales pitch ?

[nutmeg]

I figured GP would know because he has been dealing since the early 1960's and he was about the only dealer with connections into that side of world at the time. I had no pink smock dealings with him. I did not get mine from him and he had no reason to make a false statement. If you know him he can be very transactional and rather "matter of fact". I always respect his opinion. Especially back then, because he always knew where the fakes came from, especially the very early ones.

I don't recall seeing Germans in camouflage in early Soviet films (although there could be some) which I like. Same for US films for that matter. I think they preferred tunics as it made the "Nazis" more identifiable to the public.

[nutmeg]

The story that Flock tells of these coming from Czechoslovakia could hold water. The film making there was among the largest in Europe. It could be at some point after 1947 the smocks were transferred from Soviet film companies to the Czech studios and then from there later on more easily to Austria. Makes more sense then directly coming from Russia that early.


During the occupation of Czechoslovakia by Nazi Germany during World War II (1940–1945) major additions were made to the studio's facilities. Seeking to make Barrandov an equal to the major film studios in Berlin and Munich, the Nazis drew up plans for three large interconnecting stages. Construction work started in 1941 but the final stage was not completed until early 1945. These three huge stages (with more than 37,000 square feet (3,400 m2) of shooting space) still form the main attraction of the studios to film-makers throughout the world.

Shortly after the war, Barrandov and its smaller sister studio facility at Hostivař were nationalized and remained under state ownership until the beginning of the 1990s. During this time, Barrandov's impressive film laboratories were constructed, as was a special effects stage with a back projection tunnel and a water tank equipped for under-water shooting.

[Patty D]

The Pink pattern is a way more away from the German standard Oak pattern than Norwegian "elongated" pattern is. No comparison there:
Shapes of most camo elements are wrong.
Colors of many camo elements are reversed.
Number and location of camo elements are different.
Pattern-repeat is much longer and filled with fantasy camo pattern.
Add to this:
All pink smocks came from one source all together and only at one time and the source is a famous fake-maker Floch
No single provenance, no evidence, no photo in wear, no vet-bring backs
No laces but mismatched used buttons, unusual elastic waist band - never-seen in other smocks
No known zeltbahn, helmet cover or cap in this same combination of colors and material
Minsk-Film in the samp is not official name of the movie-company

All these make these pink smock too unique to be original IMO

DP throughout this thread you've provided some great info/research but then with this (above) post that all seems to go out the window. You make it seem like you've not been reading what has been posted on here at all.

Most, if not all of those statements have been quashed to some degree, with the evidence posted, maybe bar the film stamp which is ongoing- but as has been repeated, it's predominantly the basis behind their appearance in these smocks, and other known 100% ORIGINAL garments (AND lets not forget the other two stamps, which seem to get left out in all this...!) that's important.

Yet again - they DEVALUED items. They weren't a selling point. They were defaced, even cut out in some - damaged stock. Not ALL are marked etc etc.

One of the key negatives that has always been put forward on these is and I quote: "All pink smocks came from one source all together and only at one time and the source is a famous fake-maker Floch." The key point this being the Floch connection.

Well as has been posted by member 'brooksbz': "I did not get mine from him and he had no reason to make a false statement. If you know him he can be very transactional and rather "matter of fact". I always respect his opinion. Especially back then, because he always knew where the fakes came from, especially the very early ones.

Well there's at least one we know that didn't hit collectors hands via Floch, meaning he wasn't behind their production. So that's that.

The other one we might have found is apparently from a Russian Military museum in Moscow (along with another duplicate - still there??). A source such as that should be easily traceable, especially since you'd hope records would be kept as to when it arrived. That could prove a lot - either way!

DP, with you living there surely it wouldn't be too hard to check?? Unless maybe you fear what you might find out from that source...

[RobertE]

"Pink smock from Moscow military museum" is the biggest lie in this thread so far - of the same degree as my recent joke about the SS-NKVD patch. Seriously


"MINSK-FILM" never existed. That name is FANTASY. New evidence has only revealed that the stamp on pink smocks is fake.

You need to add "IMO" after both entries. Unless you personally know the smock seller and where he got the smock, you are speculating.

You are not a film studio expert, are you? A weeks worth of internet research, comments from collectors who's film studio credentials are also unknown, and speculation (again) are not enough to pronounce the stamps fake. Sorry.

s/f Robert

[Disco Partisan]

DP throughout this thread you've provided some great info/research but then with this (above) post that all seems to go out the window. You make it seem like you've not been reading what has been posted on here at all.

Most, if not all of those statements have been quashed to some degree, with the evidence posted, maybe bar the film stamp which is ongoing- but as has been repeated, it's predominantly the basis behind their appearance in these smocks, and other known 100% ORIGINAL garments (AND lets not forget the other two stamps, which seem to get left out in all this...!) that's important.

Yet again - they DEVALUED items. They weren't a selling point. They were defaced, even cut out in some - damaged stock. Not ALL are marked etc etc.

One of the key negatives that has always been put forward on these is and I quote: "All pink smocks came from one source all together and only at one time and the source is a famous fake-maker Floch." The key point this being the Floch connection.

Well as has been posted by member 'brooksbz': "I did not get mine from him and he had no reason to make a false statement. If you know him he can be very transactional and rather "matter of fact". I always respect his opinion. Especially back then, because he always knew where the fakes came from, especially the very early ones.

Well there's at least one we know that didn't hit collectors hands via Floch, meaning he wasn't behind their production. So that's that.

The other one we might have found is apparently from a Russian Military museum in Moscow (along with another duplicate - still there??). A source such as that should be easily traceable, especially since you'd hope records would be kept as to when it arrived. That could prove a lot - either way!

DP, with you living there surely it wouldn't be too hard to check?? Unless maybe you fear what you might find out from that source...

are you sure 'brooksbz' was talking about Johannes Floch because below he mentioned "GP"

I figured GP would know because he has been dealing since the early 1960's and he was about the only dealer with connections into that side of world at the time. I had no pink smock dealings with him. I did not get mine from him and he had no reason to make a false statement. If you know him he can be very transactional and rather "matter of fact". I always respect his opinion. Especially back then, because he always knew where the fakes came from, especially the very early ones.

[90th Light]

are you sure 'brooksbz' was talking about Johannes Floch because below he mentioned "GP"

Even if he did mean George.P.,

G.P. was not the only dealer to get into the USSR before the Berlin Wall came down and also be there very soon after it did come down.

I can think of more than one European dealer who was there at the same time and even ahead of him.

In fact because of the Cold War, there was more resistance to Americans having any chance of entering the USSR before the wall fell,

Chris

[Disco Partisan]

You need to add "IMO" after both entries. Unless you personally know the smock seller and where he got the smock, you are speculating.

You are not a film studio expert, are you? A weeks worth of internet research, comments from collectors who's film studio credentials are also unknown, and speculation (again) are not enough to pronounce the stamps fake. Sorry.

s/f Robert

I know what I say. They are fake until proven otherwise. BTW you are not in position to tell me what I need "IMO"

[Palmenmuster]

Disco, you have a lot of knowledge and done some good research. I would like that you keep an open mind and do some more work in Russia. I think that you agree with me, the most important thing is to document the actual facts about these smocks. IMO this is more important than personal feelings.
Tom

[90th Light]

I know what I say. They are fake until proven otherwise. BTW you are not in position to tell me what I need "IMO"

For a long time on this thread,

we were told that they were clearly fake because of the unknown HBT used to make the pockets. Nothing had ever been seen like it on anything WW2 German. It was a joke. This was repeated over and over again, even before this thread.

It has turned out that those saying this was the basis of a fake, did not understand ersatz HBT made from a raw, rough, ersatz-blends involving materials like Flax and Hemp which had then been heavily washed in some cases.

Same thing equally applies to the camo pattern. Now we are being told that because it is extended and different from Oak A or B that it must be bad. The point is that Birch is different from Oak A & B in several ways. This is why some collectors rejected it in the 1980's. However, different does not prove bad. There are several logical reasons why the pattern is different and pre-May 1945.

Equally the stamps are a mystery yet to be explained, but again they do not prove bad. All they prove so far is, why "Minsk" ? If you are going to fake, why not Moscow or Leningrad. No body in the West had even heard of Minsk in the 1980's but everyone knew the other two. In fact to be honest, I have learnt a lot more about Minsk via this thread than I knew before it.

The thing about the "Birch" smock is the deeper you research and go into detail, the more they come up trumps every time,

Chris

[tanker]

Man, this should be called the Pink Smock Forum!. This is all you see.