"Pink" smock or not?

[RobertE]

That's a fair question, DP. I can't.

My point is, we have no way of knowing why the outfit that produced the birch smocks chose to create a "filler" pattern to compensate for the additional width.

I will say that before the Norwegian pattern was verified as real, plenty of collectors that insisted on a 1 to 1 match to accepted SS patterns would have dismissed an "elongated" pattern out of hand. Like the birch pattern, the Norwegian pattern was completely different than accepted prints.

s/f Robert

[Disco Partisan]

That's a fair question, DP. I can't.

My point is, we have no way of knowing why the outfit that produced the birch smocks chose to create a "filler" pattern to compensate for the additional width.

I will say that before the Norwegian pattern was verified as real, plenty of collectors that insisted on a 1 to 1 match to accepted SS patterns would have dismissed an "elongated" pattern out of hand. Like the birch pattern, the Norwegian pattern was completely different than accepted prints.

s/f Robert

The Pink pattern is a way more away from the German standard Oak pattern than Norwegian "elongated" pattern is. No comparison there:
Shapes of most camo elements are wrong.
Colors of many camo elements are reversed.
Number and location of camo elements are different.
Pattern-repeat is much longer and filled with fantasy camo pattern.
Add to this:
All pink smocks came from one source all together and only at one time and the source is a famous fake-maker Floch
No single provenance, no evidence, no photo in wear, no vet-bring backs
No laces but mismatched used buttons, unusual elastic waist band - never-seen in other smocks
No known zeltbahn, helmet cover or cap in this same combination of colors and material
Minsk-Film in the samp is not official name of the movie-company

All these make these pink smock too unique to be original IMO

[RobertE]

The Pink pattern is a way more away from the German standard Oak pattern than Norwegian "elongated" pattern is. No comparison there:
Shapes of most camo elements are wrong.
Colors of many camo elements are reversed.
Number and location of camo elements are different.
Pattern-repeat is much longer and filled with fantasy camo pattern.

DP, we know the pattern is unique to the birch smock. The factory was not trying to replicate the exact pattern, or it would look like the numbered fakes being produced today.

Add to this:
All pink smocks came from one source all together and only at one time and the source is a famous fake-maker Floch

Not true. I posted pictures of a pink smock acquired directly from a Moscow military museum by the owner - first hand provenance. It was NOT a Floch hoard smock.

No single provenance, no evidence, no photo in wear, no vet-bring backs

Photos were found in time for many original items, including the
leibermuster uniform items and printed sleeve eagles. Thousands of these were made and worn, but it took us 70+ years on the sleeve eagles.

No laces but mismatched used buttons, unusual elastic waist band - never-seen in other smocks

The elastic has been addressed, some buttons are new, no laces means they were not put in and in no way makes this smock a replica

No known zeltbahn, helmet cover or cap in this same combination of colors and material


Like other SS camo - we have NOT found complete zelt/cap/cover/trousers for all known patterns

Minsk-Film in the samp is not official name of the movie-company

As stated repeatedly, we know next to nothing about the Soviet film industry supply chain of the 1940's.

All these make these pink smock too unique to be original IMO

Thank you for laying this out in such a decent manner. However, all your points have been addressed by counterpoint repeatedly throughout the thread, including the excellent, unbiased analysis by the Spanish contributor.

s/f Robert

[viva_giulio]

The Pink pattern is a way more away from the German standard Oak pattern than Norwegian "elongated" pattern is. No comparison there:
Shapes of most camo elements are wrong.
Colors of many camo elements are reversed.
Number and location of camo elements are different.
Pattern-repeat is much longer and filled with fantasy camo pattern.
Add to this:
All pink smocks came from one source all together and only at one time and the source is a famous fake-maker Floch
No single provenance, no evidence, no photo in wear, no vet-bring backs
No laces but mismatched used buttons, unusual elastic waist band - never-seen in other smocks
No known zeltbahn, helmet cover or cap in this same combination of colors and material
Minsk-Film in the samp is not official name of the movie-company

All these make these pink smock too unique to be original IMO

125 pages (4/5 of nothing) but imho the focus is "the scheme is 3/5 of a normal smock and pattern filled with a fantasy/unknow zone"

[Disco Partisan]

Thank you for laying this out in such a decent manner. However, all your points have been addressed by counterpoint repeatedly throughout the thread, including the excellent, unbiased analysis by the Spanish contributor.

s/f Robert

OK while we are using this "excellent, unbiased analysis"/approach in authentication questionable military antiques let me introduce you the Unique, super-rare never-seen-before SS sleeve insignia worn by members of the SS secret regiment "GULAG" formed from ex-NKVD members previously served in the soviet concentration camp system known as "GULAG" (similar to Nazi death camps). Those were all hard-core communist-fanatics but Nazis highly valued their experience in cruelty and even allowed them to wear the circle-and-hammer on their new SS sleeve insignia. No provenance, no reference, no evidence, yet 100% original. It came from "the king of thieves" mr.Phlock who found only one and half million of these patches in an unidentified East-German movie-studio in Berlin. Absolutely nothing like any other SS insignia, but nothing glows under UV and nothing melts in fire - So, there is no doubt, it is 100% period-made original

[RobertE]

Useless, sarcastic post. Better to stay on topic.

s/f Robert

[Disco Partisan]

Useless, sarcastic post. Better to stay on topic.

s/f Robert

No more funnier than below:

Thank you for laying this out in such a decent manner. However, all your points have been addressed by counterpoint repeatedly throughout the thread, including the excellent, unbiased analysis by the Spanish contributor.

s/f Robert

[RobertE]

My comment was not a joke and wasn't sarcastic - I was honestly thanking you for a good entry. Your points were very well addressed in the referenced post, so rather than repost the whole thing again I suggested reading it.

s/f Robert

[90th Light]

"Shapes of most camo elements are wrong." = why are they wrong ? who says that they are not evolving from Oak towards something else more suitable for the front they were intended to be used at.


"Colors of many camo elements are reversed." = ongoing evolution of a slightly different pattern. Also if you are going to fake, is it not easier to copy exactly. Why make all the extra work ?


"Number and location of camo elements are different." = again why can this not be evolution of new variation/ local production, again why make all the extra work if copying ? Easier to copy exactly


"Pattern-repeat is much longer and filled with fantasy camo pattern" = who can say for sure it is fantasy ? After all, it is slightly different pattern from regular Oak and may be that was intended. How else are they suppose to cope with wider rollers. That is how they could do it in the 1940's, just the same as they can today


Add to this:
"All pink smocks came from one source all together and only at one time and the source is a famous fake-maker Floch" = however, we know for sure that Floch did not make them, he found them. What does this prove ? Floch sold fakes as fake and original as original. He was a wholesaler. He sold these as original before the Berlin wall came down.


"No single provenance, no evidence, no photo in wear, no vet-bring backs"= none in the West that we know of so far. However, what is sitting in the Moscow Museum and how did they get their ones ? How do we know that veteran found examples have simply just not been ignored and dismissed as "Pinks" from Floch ? After all Ben who started this thread stated that his came from an American veteran. May be it did and we got it wrong ?


"No laces but mismatched used buttons" = already covered and explained as factory to depot and 43/ 44 recycled uniforms,


"unusual elastic waist band - never-seen in other smocks" = how does it not match and what is in other SS smocks that is so different ? Until I added an image on this thread, everyone was saying that is was white, synthetic and post war. It is not, it is 101% WW2 European elastic. Keep in mind, the shortages of elastic that the Germans were facing and the need for substitutes to keep production going.


"No known zeltbahn, helmet cover or cap in this same combination of colors and material" = already covered many times, same for some of the other SS camo patterns. e.g. where are all the "Palm" Zelts ?


"Minsk-Film in the stamp is not official name of the movie-company" = However, it is an official name for something. Why make up a name when there are plenty of real ones to choose from for your stamp which would again be easier to copy ?


And what about the duck being WW2 ersatz raw blended from Flax/ Hemp

What about the weave not letting in any more light than some 101% original Zelts which can be treated to be water proof. However, when washed the water resistance washes out or lessens over time.

What about the thread being WW2 German/ European

What about the Selvage at the end of the cuff bering 1940's bolt of cloth

What about the ersatz blended HBT being so close to other SS smocks that it could in fact be German

What about the greens in the camo pattern matching exactly with 101% German zelts and smocks made before May 1945 ?

What about the cut, shape and size mapping on to a WW2 101% German made SS smocks almost exactly.

What about the hand sewn lacing holes from more than one workers hands

What about the WW2 double stitching and multi-part, big factory, specialised department assembly.

What about the use of several different coloured threads showing more than one type of heavy, industrial type sewing machine used in their production.

What about the 1947 connection being discovered more than one way by different people at different times

What about no one knew how to fake all this in 1980 and if they did then show me any other fake from 1980 that is even close


The list could go on,

Chris

[Disco Partisan]

My comment was not a joke and wasn't sarcastic - I was honestly thanking you for a good entry. Your points were very well addressed in the referenced post, so rather than repost the whole thing again I suggested reading it.

s/f Robert

I have re-read all of them yesterday. Twice. Robert, I have more convincing fakes, on which this "excellent, unbiased analysis"/approach can be apllied to make them original even much easier. If you want to believe in all the excuses and "what-if"s about these smocks in this thread - fine with me. Collect whatever you like

[RobertE]

I am not interested in collecting replicas, and yes there are great fakes out there - I have been collecting since the 1970's consistently, and like most of us have seen some excellent copies.

We have seen some new evidence which is not easy to dismiss, and you and others have completely talked around the fact that these stamps have been found in original items.

The stamps in real, rare items are a fact. The detractors reasoning for why we should discount it is opinion, and speculation - there is no factual basis for dismissing the stamps in original items, just speculation.

The HBT in the birch smocks has now been posted repeatedly - it was dismissed based on pictures, but the experts now can't tell from the pictures what is "textbook" and what is birch. Now it turns out to be used in items deemed original - again, this is a fact which is dismissed with opinion.

And now at least smock has been found that is not sourced from the Floch find, but from a Moscow military museum. This tells us that they were Russian military museum property and are captured items - the Moscow smock doesn't have a drawstring and has the stamp cut out, just like the Floch ones. I have contacted the smock owner and am awaiting more details.

In addition to the points made by Chris in his last post, how can you say there is nothing to base the claim the smocks are original upon?

s/f Robert

[Thälmannpionier]

Because its sunday the 4th advent
https://youtu.be/s7KBIMFlRRY

No harm done..dont have a go...

[brooksbz]

[QUOTE=

What about no one knew how to fake all this in 1980 and if they did then show me any other fake from 1980 that is even close

Chris[/QUOTE]

I am reading this thread with interest. I am totally neutral with regard to the arguments and personalities in this thread. In regards to the "quoted" statement, IMO these smocks are not German or made within the bounds of the traditional SS supply chain. They may be be pre-1945 or maybe not. As I stated much earlier in this thread, pink smocks were thought to be post-WW2 in the late 1970's. GP thought they came from Yugoslavia when I asked him back then. Also IMO it is plausible they are made very well and probably made to military specifications for some country. Good fakes have been made since 1945. I am just stating what I know and my opinion as I read this thread as an unbiased member of the WAF. Few of the arguments presented in this thread are new (except the sewing comments which I thought were nice). I sold mine to another person back then who was well aware of these arguments back BEFORE 1980.

[Disco Partisan]

And now at least smock has been found that is not sourced from the Floch find, but from a Moscow military museum. This tells us that they were Russian military museum property and are captured items - the Moscow smock doesn't have a drawstring and has the stamp cut out, just like the Floch ones. I have contacted the smock owner and am awaiting more details.

In addition to the points made by Chris in his last post, how can you say there is nothing to base the claim the smocks are original upon?

s/f Robert

"Pink smock from Moscow military museum" is the biggest lie in this thread so far - of the same degree as my recent joke about the SS-NKVD patch. Seriously

We have seen some new evidence which is not easy to dismiss, and you and others have completely talked around the fact that these stamps have been found in original items.

The stamps in real, rare items are a fact. The detractors reasoning for why we should discount it is opinion, and speculation - there is no factual basis for dismissing the stamps in original items, just speculation.

s/f Robert

"MINSK-FILM" never existed. That name is FANTASY. New evidence has only revealed that the stamp on pink smocks is fake.

[90th Light]

"Pink smock from Moscow military museum" is the biggest lie in this thread so far - of the same degree as my recent joke about the SS-NKVD patch. Seriously

Well, it should not be hard to find out. I am skeptical at this stage.

However, let's see what the seller of the smock says and even the museum itself.
Could be interesting even if there is no "Birch" ("Pink") at all.

However, we will not know if we do not ask,

Chris

p.s. any other museums in Russia got SS smocks/ camo of any kind ?