"Pink" smock or not?

[Leroy]

Phild, Pete, Chris - Just pure speculation on my part, probably misplaced, and perhaps I shouldn't even have brought it up. I haven't spoken to Pieter at all since I went back completely through this thread and noticed those comments. I just know that his saying these weren't fake, just not German, is something (knowing him and his collection)(the "proof is in the pudding") I would have to take very seriously. The whole idea of these being made as some sort of colossal
and complex fraud just doesn't hang together to me. Too much time and investment for too little return. Just my feeling (which I'm sure will result in insults being aimed in my direction).

[Marc Shaffer]

Are there any examples of any army manufacturing enemy camo uniforms or uniforms in general, to fight dressed as their enemy. Thus being able to enter or fight behind enemy lines ???

In the Battle of the Bulge, the Germans who got behind the USA lines dressed a GI's were wearing captured American made uniforms.

Brings to mind that wonderful story the actor British actor and former WW2 army officer David Niven use to tell about the battle;

Asked by suspicious American sentries during the Battle of the Bulge who had won the World Series in 1943, he answered "Haven't the foggiest idea ... but I did co-star with Ginger Rogers in Bachelor Mother!" On another occasion, asked how he felt about serving with the British Army in Europe, he allegedly said 'Well on the whole, I would rather be tickling Ginger Rogers' tits'

Chris

The British manufactured German uniforms and equipment for training purposes. There is a British made German helmet over on Ken N.'s website now. It is used to model an original splinter helmet cover.

[kammo man]

So the Pinks were made by the Russians to be used by Commando type units ?

If that was the case then they would be cool.

[jacquesf]

Do you guys on this thread get paid by the word? J

[kammo man]

Pete and 90th light do.
They both read the LR Hubbard guide to science fiction writing at a penny a word.

[nutmeg]

The whole discussion about the stamps is pointless. Even if you prove them to be original , the stamps do not legitimate the smocks. Yes, the movie industry in Soviet Union or any other communist country had plenty of original uniforms still, they could have plenty of quality copies.
I am sure they could order the production of 500 quality smocks if they needed them. And they could get them. I saw props made for a 70’s Polish historical production which were made in Russia and they were brilliant. Jewellery, arms, costumes everything was of the finest quality.
If you discuss the costs of production or hand sewn lace holes remember that the average month salary in early 80’s in these countries was some 20-30 USD. I mean black market value because you could not exchange USD in bank. I am sure that the production of these smock could have been arranged in the early 80’s in one of the communist country for next to nothing and the quality would still be great.
The stamps may have been added to legitimize the smocks. Every collector knew that there were plenty of original stuff used in the movies and a stamp would prove that the smock is one of them used in movie industry and so original.



I do not believe the Germans would arrange the production of a new pattern just to make 500 or a 1000 of smocks. The fabric for these smocks would be printed in a day and then what? Even if Germans decided to stop the production of pink smock after a day, they would still use the pattern. And they didn’t. Nobody ever saw pink colors or this specific pattern on any other garment but pink smocks. If they wanted to print some experimental colors, they would use a pattern that they already had, that is economy.

First of all there is absolutely no reason in the 1980s (pre internet) to plant fake Soviet film markings in original items which at the time would have created questions. We have two original other types of SS smocks with these marks and a pair of trousers with just the red and green mark. Also how come all the Birch smocks don't have the studio marks , if you are going to add fake marks why not all? Then why not all the original DAK caps Floch sold? These marks have just been noticed NOW in these two other types smocks.


We don't know how many of these were made maybe thousands, maybe the factory was taken by the Soviets before they were even distributed, who knows?

I have worked in the movie industry as well and they make some nice things but not with the exact kind of detail in an original item like this. Just what looks goods outwardly on film. No way these are film costumes.

There is no question in my mind that the Birch smocks along with other types of smocks and clothing were in a Russian studio inventory in 1947.

[nutmeg]

Leroy, I went back and read Pieter's comments. I recall them at the time (I think) but he offered not other details or explanation. Your comments above reflect my guess as to what he was talking about. I too have considered if these could/would have been made wartime by the Soviets to use in covert operations or training films and exercises like the now understood so-called mobilization tunics that we now know were made by the British for training use.

My problem with that theory is again the detail and the fact that I think that the Soviets would have made the colors closer to fool (for covert operations) as their science skill was very high. Its really impossible to say, but these seem overly elaborate for use in training and to some degree even to use as a ruse......also is the fact that by the time these would have been made by the Soviets late 43 or more likely 44 in order to get the sample and set up ....etc.. to make them.....well I think that they had plenty of originals to use by that point of the war.

These would be much more problematic to explain as real if they were the so-called M40 pattern, but IMO become very hard to explain as copies in that they are the M42 pattern.

Why make them when they probably had thousands of originals they could have used , they captured hundreds of thousands of prisoners.

[kammo man]

Let's get something straight here , the CR helmets are not Kelly Hick's fakes, he didn't make them, he believed were real as did everyone else until just recently . I know Kelly very well and he is an honest guy.

I'm not arguing with you anymore ( but I respect your knowledge and passion). I'm just going to present opinion and facts as I see it.

They are Kelly Hicks fakes.

He blessed and pushed them and wrote the COAs that cost ALOT of people ALOT of money.

He also did the same with SS cloth helmet covers...........


Thats where I met his COAs on FAKE helmet covers.

The truth hurts.

[nutmeg]

So you are saying that Kelly Hicks MADE the CR helmets even though they were around 20 years before he wrote his books? This is the wrong thread for this discussion and we don't want to get off track but I think you should take these criminal charges over to the ongoing SS decal threads.

They are Kelly Hicks fakes.

He blessed and pushed them and wrote the COAs that cost ALOT of people ALOT of money.

He also did the same with SS cloth helmet covers...........


Thats where I met his COAs on FAKE helmet covers.

The truth hurts.

[kammo man]

I said he blessed them.


This thread is dealing with a fake cammo jacket that caused many people to get burned by many dealers.
The dealer who peddled the Pinks was a big faker who was well known .

Its all related in the same web.

[nutmeg]

I said he blessed them.


This thread is dealing with a fake cammo jacket that caused many people to get burned by many dealers.
The dealer who peddled the Pinks was a big faker who was well known .

Its all related in the same web.

You said "They are Kelly Hicks fakes " which means he made them. EVERYONE blessed them until a few months ago, go back and read old posts on WAF .

Floch also sold tons of great original stuff as well, SS cuff titles, DAK caps and clothing , even my planetree smock (along with three others) .

[kammo man]

He also sold the bad TUX badges.

A dealer like him will mix in the bad with the good.


Its SOP.


Back to normal Pinks talking now.

[nutmeg]

Here is a better picture of the marking in my planetree tunic. I lightened it a little on photoshop

[nutmeg]

here it is with more contrast

[nutmeg]

desaturated and more contrast