"Pink" smock or not?

[90th Light]

Its a sad decline in the SS forum that not many members can see a fake SS Pink jacket when they see one.
An older fake like this is a glaring example of this.

I am sick and tired of 90th lights personal jibes as a side note.

owen

My post number 1437 is a serious post. You say in post number 1435;

"Is plainly easy to see whats wrong with it instantly" in terms of the "Birch" smock.

Well, its not plain and easy. If it was then this thread would have been over in less than 10 pages. The differences that you claim to see are ones of pure perception that depends on many things including how you want to see it, and what sort of day you are having.

Hell, the images are not even large enough to see a lot of things/ details of those two smocks.

And on many fakes the colours are often more vibrant and sharp than on the originals, not blended and toned.

There is also the obvious difference of an earlier smoother "Plane-Tree" M42 (Later 1942-43 manufacture) being compared with a later rough "Birch" M42 (might have been made as late as Jan-March 1944 even April-May 1944).

We just do not know for sure but the more we study in detail, the more we discover that says pre-May 1945

[Disco Partisan]

Yes,

but the movie-buffs here who are now looking into this have told me that in the 1940's, it consistantly had more than one division of the company.

We know of

- Moscow
- Leningrad
- Minsk

May be there are more ?

If uniforms are stored in Moscow what would they be stamped verses being stored in Minsk ?

And although the stamp looks to say "Minsk". Until we find a clear example, we still can not be 100% certain that is what it says.

It was the same situation with the year "1947". Until we found nutmeg's example, it was open to speculation as to what it exactly the numbers were,

Chris

it says "Minsk" in the stamp it is clear and it will always say "Minsk" unfortunately

[NZMark]

Yes, by no means a dead end just yet.
The positives far exceed the negatives in respect to these smocks.
All credit to the guys leading the charge on this thread. You've not risen to any baiting remarks which could lead to this thread being shut down (a strategy, possibly?).
The idea that these must be fake due to no strings being present is like saying a pair of boots must be fake due to a lack of laces....
Logically, of course, these were washed before going on the market. I would quite easily imagine several rat damaged examples being biffed due to them being unsellable. I've washed tunics in the past (GASP!) to get rid of horrible odours (cigarette stink primarily) before learning that simply hanging them out to air was just as effective.
Watching with interest,
Mark.

[kammo man]

owen,

you need to get up to speed. You are behind the 8 ball on this one

the hbt in the pockets has now been matched directly with hbt in some of the field grey ss m43 caps, veteran brought back from dachau,

chris

show examples of the matching cloth.

[90th Light]

it says "Minsk" in the stamp it is clear and it will always say "Minsk" unfortunately

There is nothing unfortunate if we can read it properly. However, lets see if others agree.

The unfortunate part, is the lack of information about Film companies in Stalin's Russia 1947. Several are now trying to find out what we can. It will take time and help from some who have not yet seen this thread or know there is a question,

Chris

[Palmenmuster]

Chris, keep up the good work, sorry to say but I dont think the nay-sayers bother to read your long posts thoroughly and reflect.
Tom

[90th Light]

show examples of the matching cloth.

Yes we have already discussed this Owen several posts back.

We are now waiting for nutmeg to do this as soon as he can get to a "Birch" to compare with.

The other thing that has also come out of recent posts, he needs to compare with both the pockets on a "Birch that has not been washed/ lightly washed and a heavily washed "Birch"

The HBT in the pockets becomes faded, frayed, fuffed and opens up a bit after repeated/ heavy washing,

Chris

[nutmeg]

There was only one movie company in Minsk until 1961 - "Belarusfilm".
The "Minsk-film" is a fantasy name on the fake stamp.

I think the previously posted information disputes your comments pretty well. In addition they didn't take the name Belarus film until sometime in 1946. The stamps are early 1947 so probably hadn't had a chance to change the stamps or didn't care.

[90th Light]

Yes, by no means a dead end just yet.
The positives far exceed the negatives in respect to these smocks.
All credit to the guys leading the charge on this thread. You've not risen to any baiting remarks which could lead to this thread being shut down (a strategy, possibly?).
The idea that these must be fake due to no strings being present is like saying a pair of boots must be fake due to a lack of laces....
Logically, of course, these were washed before going on the market. I would quite easily imagine several rat damaged examples being biffed due to them being unsellable. I've washed tunics in the past (GASP!) to get rid of horrible odours (cigarette stink primarily) before learning that simply hanging them out to air was just as effective.
Watching with interest,
Mark.

Mark,

did you see many threads back that we have had a response from "Bata" about the tropical boots they made during WW2,

Chris

[nutmeg]

Yes we have already discussed this Owen several posts back.

We are now waiting for nutmeg to do this as soon as he can get to a "Birch" to compare with.

The other thing that has also come out of recent posts, he needs to compare with both the pockets on a "Birch that has not been washed/ lightly washed and a heavily washed "Birch"

The HBT in the pockets becomes faded, frayed, fuffed and opens up a bit after repeated/ heavy washing,

Chris

I bought the one on estand so when it comes I'll lay them out together and shoot a detailed Macros lens shot. Would comparisons with other HBT garments be helpful? I have some nice vet bought mint ones. I don't have access at the time to any other Birch smocks , I'll ask around but I'm out in the country, so not many other collectors nearby.

[90th Light]

I think the previously posted information disputes your comments pretty well. In addition they didn't take the name Belarus film until sometime in 1946. The stamps are early 1947 so probably hadn't had a chance to change the stamps or didn't care.

1947 could well be the year that they removed/ discharged the smocks from the "old" Minsk studio to a new ? studio or museum even.

Is that square date stamp for property "into" inventory or "out" of inventory.

Often those stamps are discharge stamps. Look at the ones Nick.G. posted from Mike Davis site

???

There is much we do not yet know,

Chris

[Disco Partisan]

This thread is insane.

So the stamp is thrown away after 1947 ?

its cut into the entire stamp.

So non SS collectors are intent on validating a fake stamp on a fake garment ?

Its beyond weird .

PLEASE IF SOMEONE THINKS THESE JACKETS ARE REAL CONTACT YOUR LOCAL BRANCE OF HEAVENS GATE.
THEY HAVE PNIK JACKETS AND NIKES SITTING ON BUNKBEDS WAITING !!!!!!

Not necessarily incorporated in the stamp...That indeed would make NO sense...and throw the stamp away on a daily basis?
7 May 1947...(note how dark the date is in comparison with the rest!)
Its a simple explanation: Rotary date stamps would have already existed! So just space left for its placement...that is why the other date reads 9 May 1947...



This is why it would not make sense to consider these forgeries...to complex and laborious (too time consuming)
-(2) Framed property stamp (with spaces left)
-(4) Green stamp for inventory number
-(3) additional black stamp for date (Acceptance date)
-(1) round separate stamp (release Ministry?)
-(5)triangular separate stamp (acceptance ministry?)

total tally: 5 stamps....= 5 processes times how many smocks?
Why would Floch (or whoever) make it that complicated and than smudge-deface the stamps afterwards?
and at a time when nobody understood the exact meaning of these? (and appearing on original garments)???

kammo man was right - the date is cut into the entire stamp but it would not be thrown away after 1947 but much sooner : after May 1947 because in the satamp it says "IN MAY 1947" not "9 May 1947"
Ask nutmeg to post a better picture of the stamp you will see that it says :"в мае 1947" (in may 1947) not "9 мая 1947".
Of course Russians would never do that I mean they would not be making a new stamp for each month.

[90th Light]

I bought the one on estand so when it comes I'll lay them out together and shoot a detailed Macros lens shot. Would comparisons with other HBT garments be helpful? I have some nice vet bought mint ones. I don't have access at the time to any other Birch smocks , I'll ask around but I'm out in the country, so not many other collectors nearby.

Ok thanks nutmeg,

good to know you got it. From memory the smock on the estand looked to have had some washing so we need to keep that in mind when we compare.

If you can also get your hands on a lightly washed example that would also be interesting.

The cloth guys tell me that we need to measure the gauge of the thread used to weave the HBT. Of course this will only prove so much because some makers would be using slightly thinner/ thicker gauge thread depending on what they could get with a war going on. However, it will give us some idea/ basis of comparison.

Do you also have an HBT (thick/ course gauge thread) M44 dot tunic or trousers like on page 850 of Mike Beavers book, volume 3 to compare with ?

Many thanks,

Chris

[kammo man]

Yes we have already discussed this Owen several posts back.

We are now waiting for nutmeg to do this as soon as he can get to a "Birch" to compare with.

The other thing that has also come out of recent posts, he needs to compare with both the pockets on a "Birch that has not been washed/ lightly washed and a heavily washed "Birch"

The HBT in the pockets becomes faded, frayed, fuffed and opens up a bit after repeated/ heavy washing,

Chris

I am directly asking you for samples from a SS cap liner HB fabric that matches the Pink pockets.

Can you do that for me please?

[90th Light]

kammo man was right - the date is cut into the entire stamp but it would not be thrown away after 1947 but much sooner : after May 1947 because in the satamp it says "IN MAY 1947" not "9 May 1947"
Ask nutmeg to post a better picture of the stamp you will see that it says :"в мае 1947" (in may 1947) not "9 мая 1947".
Of course Russians would never do that I mean they would not be making a new stamp for each month.

Both interesting and useful information DP,

thank you for taking the time to double check that.

Is there anything else you can read on it ?

Chris