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**RobertE** · 12-11-2015, 03:03 PM

Yes, check thread 1107, which shows and original pair of dot trousers and an original smock stamped with these type inventory markings.

So far, the only other (two) items that bear this marks are original SS.

s/f Robert

**Disco Partisan** · 12-11-2015, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by RobertE View Post

Yes, check thread 1107, which shows and original pair of dot trousers and an original smock stamped with these type inventory markings.

So far, the only other (two) items that bear this marks are original SS.

s/f Robert

other (two) items that bear these marks are original, obviously, the marks are not

**kammo man** · 12-12-2015, 01:23 AM

So no WH wool items ?
NO KM boring pieces are found with the fake stamps ever found ?
No SS black tunics .....

its all so weird.

Kudos to the faker making up a nice back story that could not be cross checked in the 1980s.
Pretty smart.
No really smart.

owen

**90th Light** · 12-12-2015, 01:38 AM

Robert summed it up in this post;

Originally posted by RobertE View Post

Regardless of what the stamps read, those stamps should not be in smocks or any other WWII German uniform item circa 1980's - they hurt the value. The point is, no fraudster would jeopardize the potential sale of a superbly built replica with a stamp from the east.

Fake RZM stamps, humped up stabs at what a real RBN would looks like, bogus names, improbable stamps in German - that's what was being used at the time. Not unknown Soviet anything.

As far as finding the company, we first have to read the markings clearly, which we can't. But the style is definitely Soviet inventory types. I have seen hundreds of them, in Soviet museums. Once we do find the company name, we can keep pulling that thread and see where it goes.

It's premature to try to decipher the studio, and we certainly shouldn't be calling the stamps fakes because we can't reconcile what they say with a short list of possible match companies. DP's list of Soviet firm company's wasn't meant to be inclusive (I don't think); there were at least 25 film companies and of those, most underwent mergers and name changes. For instance, the All-Union Newsreel Factory - Soyuzkinochronicle changed it's name five time before settling on the Central Studio for Documentary Film.

Those same stamps have been found in original SS uniform items, and shown here in this thread. So while we have seen these stamps in original items, we have NEVER seen these stamps in a known fake. Not on belts, caps, uniform items, field gear - anywhere. I'm not talking about Czech film studio stamps or other inventory markings, but these exact stamps - they have never shown up in anything fake. Just in original items.

Robert

Makes a lot of sense

Chris

**RobertE** · 12-12-2015, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by Disco Partisan View Post

other (two) items that bear these marks are original, obviously, the marks are not

DP, I think we're trying to determine if the stamps are original. It's premature to say they are not original at this stage, IMO.

regards, Robert

**kammo man** · 12-12-2015, 01:53 AM

Thats why I am asking for the boring pieces with the stamp.

**RobertE** · 12-12-2015, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by kammo man View Post

So no WH wool items ?
NO KM boring pieces are found with the fake stamps ever found ?
No SS black tunics .....

its all so weird.

Kudos to the faker making up a nice back story that could not be cross checked in the 1980s.
Pretty smart.
No really smart.

owen

Owen, the stamps so far that we know of have only been found in these two SS uniform items, but we of course have no way of knowing what is in private collections and the WAF forum is only one small slice of the collecting community.

Let me turn the question around. How many items have you found that are fake and have these stamps (besides the smocks under discussion)? Of all the faked items floating around with any number of faked up markings, have you EVER seen them in any other replica? From any service?

Because they have been found in two original SS pieces, both of which are on the pricey end and wouldn't have needed any stamps to sell in their own right, being "textbook" originals (whatever that is anymore!).

s/f Robert

**Disco Partisan** · 12-12-2015, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by RobertE View Post

DP, I think we're trying to determine if the stamps are original. It's premature to say they are not original at this stage, IMO.

regards, Robert

I could agree that it's premature to say they are not original but not at this stage.
How many more clues do we need to finally make up our mind?
We already have too many unanswered questions about these smocks and unidentifiable movie-studio-name in the stamps just adds up more doubts to it.
Almost everything that we examined about these smocks is not in their favor.
They came from Floch, which is the King of fakes.
Many details are red flags like mismatched buttons, wrong camo pattern, etc.
No such smocks have been found in veteran bring-backs, etc. No single evidence of their originality. So far we found no single reason to believe they are good and we tried hard.

**RobertE** · 12-12-2015, 02:35 AM

Originally posted by Disco Partisan View Post

I could agree that it's premature to say they are not original but not at this stage.
How many more clues do we need to finally make up our mind?
We already have too many unanswered questions about these smocks and unidentifiable movie-studio-name in the stamps just adds up more doubts to it.
Almost everything that we examined about these smocks is not in their favor.
They came from Floch, which is the King of fakes.
Many details are red flags like mismatched buttons, wrong camo pattern, etc.
No such smocks have been found in veteran bring-backs, etc. No single evidence of their originality. So far we found no single reason to believe they are good and we tried hard.

DP, all the points you bring up, from Floch to the pattern, have been addressed over and over again. I think the length of this thread is working against us - it's just too hard to re-read.

The construction of these smocks has been explained, and it's quality, period work. They are a variant, like other variants, and should be evaluated on their own merits, which has been done and they come out looking good. MANY massive hoard finds that are original don't have direct vet-find provenance; examples are used throughout the thread. And stamps that have only been found in original SS items - and regardless of what our limited insight into Soviet era film industry marking practices are, these are perfectly fine.

I say we are at a standstill, again. I'm fine with that, as I feel time is an ally to the truth in this case.

s/f Robert

**David Fettes** · 12-12-2015, 04:21 AM

There are about 20 threads on WAF asking about items that have the Russian Film stamps in. However most pre date the picture saving changes, that took place a few years back and the photographs are no longer available.

Have we seen every peice of German uniform captured by the Russians? Of course not.

Have we seen every item used by the Soviet film industry? Again of course not.

Are all collectors, be it in the USA, UK, Europe or Russia on the interent and a member of WAF? Once again no.

As for the faker creating the back story, when they were sold in the first place, this was not the case. Nobody knew what the stamps were, the "back story" was only discovered at the start of the 90's due to the collaspe of the USSR.

The search continues.

.

**Captain Black** · 12-12-2015, 04:29 AM

Originally posted by David Fettes View Post

There are about 20 threads on WAF asking about items that have the Russian Film stamps in. However most pre date the picture saving changes, that took place a few years back and the photographs are no longer available.

.

Does anyone know if any of those members who posted those threads are still active & able to re post some pics?

Cheers Brad

**David Fettes** · 12-12-2015, 04:42 AM

Originally posted by Disco Partisan View Post

Many details are red flags like mismatched buttons

Can I just ask, whats the issue with the mismatched buttons?

.

**FrenchVolunteer** · 12-12-2015, 04:51 AM

Hi,

Originally posted by Disco Partisan View Post

I could agree that it's premature to say they are not original but not at this stage.
How many more clues do we need to finally make up our mind?
We already have too many unanswered questions about these smocks and unidentifiable movie-studio-name in the stamps just adds up more doubts to it.
Almost everything that we examined about these smocks is not in their favor.
They came from Floch, which is the King of fakes.
Many details are red flags like mismatched buttons, wrong camo pattern, etc.
No such smocks have been found in veteran bring-backs, etc. No single evidence of their originality. So far we found no single reason to believe they are good and we tried hard.

+1

funny to see that now people are taking the fake russian stamps as "proof" of authenticity, and despite what Robert is saying, the construction, material, design of the pink smocks is proven to be NOT period.

"If and if and if and if and.... (to infinity) = pink smocks are original".

I'm sure that if a chemical test is done on the pink smocks that prove that they are post war fakes, people will still find a way to explain that "a secret company in a secret SS location was producing them starting from May 7, 1945 using advanced chemical components" or "the factory was taken over by the Russians before the end of the war and they started to produce a new model starting from May 7, 1945".

Believers can find as many answers as they want, they can't deny :

- "found" and proposed by Mr. Floch, known as crook and faker
- appearance : late 70's/early 80's
- sold for one third to one fourth of the common price for smocks at the time
- nothing like any other types of original smocks (construction, not reversible)
- exclusive new modified & badly copied Oak Leaf pattern with different colors !
- no period pictures or confirmed sourced smock from archives/veterans
- many different bogus stories used to sell them (Lenfilm, Moscow Museum...)
- "Minsk-Film" stamp from a company/archive no one heard of to date

See You

Vince

**David Fettes** · 12-12-2015, 05:05 AM