"Pink" smock or not?

[kammo man]

Chris.

I have said my piece a million times.

BAD HB cloth in pockets.

BAD print on top cloth.

BAD pattern printed.

Bad mix of buttons.

Bad thread and sewing.

Bad garment cut

Bad cammo loops

NO strings on any garment.

They are not WW2 german made with WW2 german standard accepted cloth all round.
They are odd.
Made with NON standard cloth.
NOT 1 has came from a VETS stash of WAR bring backs.

NOT 1 has came in a vets bring backs.
US - British - Russian.

All appeared in the late 70s- early 80s.

NO wartime photographs on any being worn.

Only FAKE helmet covers known is the PINK patten exist.

What more do you want ?

OWEN

[RobertE]

Yes indeed! The Champagne airbrush insignia was essentially vetted into the mainstream and truly a "textbook" variation because the right authorities said it was so. There were those who disagreed and they were generally considered troublemakers and not in the know.
These smocks are the same, but 180 degrees reversed. The experts declared them fakes when they appeared and in effect (via their reputations on the line and their egos) issued a CONA (Certificate of non-authenticity) on these. They can never back down at this point as insistence is their last refuge.

Some great discussions were had at a large recent show over this aspect of collecting and more importantly SELLING any collectable. Being considered an authority is KING when it comes to selling higher end items....in ANY collecting field. When dealers bless or damn and item there is no turning back for most of them....at least not without a price.

This is a solid analogy. No one can predict when or if these will be proven authentic, or what degree of evidence would be required. With the entrenched opposition of the disbelievers, I doubt any vet find, photo, or direct lineage/providence would suffice. The degree to which one most prove something is original has reached the level of the absurd.

Printed SS eagles, printed volunteer insignia, all Dachau insignia, various models of Knight's Crosses, bundles of tropical caps, boxed iron crosses, piles of G-43 pouches, others - after much howling, these were proven to be original and the detractors quietly faded away without so much as a "guess we were wrong" over the shoulder.

The selling price of an item doesn't determine originality. I paid 2000.00 for a Knights Cross and 660.00 for a nice paratrooper helmet in the last two weeks; they are real even if the price wasn't on par with dealers' asking prices. Someday, I predict people will be kicking themselves for delaying on the purchase of these smocks - but I could be wrong.

s/f Robert

[90th Light]

Chris.

I have said my piece a million times.
BAD HB cloth in pockets.
BAD print on top cloth.
BAD pattern printed.
Bad mix of buttons.
Bad thread and sewing.
Bad garment cut
Bad cammo loops
NO strings on any garment.
They are not WW2 german made with WW2 german standard accepted cloth all round.
They are odd.
Made with NON standard cloth.
NOT 1 has came from a VETS stash of WAR bring backs.
NOT 1 has came in a vets bring backs.
US - British - Russian.
All appeared in the late 70s- early 80s.
NO wartime photographs on any being worn.
Only FAKE helmet covers known is the PINK patten exist.
What more do you want ?

OWEN

"BAD HB cloth in pockets." = thicker gauge of what is found in Dachau M43 caps = WW2 = stronger than thinner guage = wartime production, use what can get

"BAD print on top cloth."= white showing through misprinting = WW2 original production

"BAD pattern printed."= can not understandable, please illustrate/ explain

"Bad mix of buttons." = many have matching buttons = sourced from from recycled tunics as done in camps like Ravensbruck.

"Bad thread and sewing." = rubbish= proven to be WW2 exactly

"Bad garment cut." = rubblish= illustrate/ prove how it is bad= in line with other later second model smocks with lower pockets

"Bad cammo loops." = rubbish = same as any other later war SS smock = two sewing styles

"NO strings on any garment." = same as unissued tropical boots found= smocks in bails, strings in box, German SS soldier gets each item from a different points as he moves along the uniform issue line

"They are not WW2 german made with WW2 german standard accepted cloth all round." = same as late war ersatz cotton Zelt with alot of flax in it= lets light through= WW2 wartime

"They are odd." = explain and illustrate how = otherwise only a subjective opinion

"Made with NON standard cloth" = repeating yourself and running out of ideas= covered above

"NOT 1 has came from a VETS stash of WAR bring backs." = same as the certain colour/ materials used G-43 pouches found in Russia plus other items which can be listed if you want.

"NOT 1 has came in a vets bring backs." = repeating yourself = already covered above but I would be very surprised if you have any idea how much or what all Russian vets brought back.

"All appeared in the late 70s- early 80s."= so did the panzer wraps and caps found by George.P. and a lot of other 101% items, even here in NZ

"NO wartime photographs on any being worn."= very hard to say for sure even if we did have a picture of such a pattern being worn = who can say for sure if Oak A, Oak B or Pink in many B/W photos unless a super clear studio image.

"Only FAKE helmet covers known is the PINK patten exist."= someone cut them up to make covers = same thing happens with original Zelts = cheaper pre-May 1945 cloth for faker/ rein-actor

"What more do you want ?" = quality, detailed analysis like Doug.B. did on the champagne decals, not a wish list of what you should study in detail,

However, I do apprecate the reply/ response,

Chris

p.s. no mention of the Korean camo you claim to have found used in the production of "Pink" pockets/ button backings = why not ? we all asked for evidence of this at the time you kept repeating it. (Do you want the post numbers of this thread where it was referred to ?)

[Disco Partisan]

"BAD pattern printed."= can not understandable, please illustrate/ explain

(Pink) camo pattern repeat is highlighted in the picture below,
which is longer than original by the way
but it is not a problem

The problem is that the pattern ("Camo-Picture") does not match the original "Camo-Picture". Al least 95% of elements match on originals. This pattern does not match even half of them. Try to find a match in any original for yourself

[Captain Black]

The degree to which one most prove something is original has reached the level of the absurd.

I think the fakers can take a lot of the blame for that, the quality of fakes has made us all paranoid

Cheers Brad

[90th Light]

To show what I mean about good/ proper/ balanced analysis. Here is an article that a collector in Spain wrote about the "Pink Smocks" to weigh up the facts and thus sum it all up.

This is a high quality article which makes good reading and is thought provoking. Both sides of the debate will find this interesting and I thank the author for the time he has put into this .

Of course some is lost/ confusing in the "Google Translate" but I am sure all reading it here will work it out,

Chris (p.s. this is a long article over 30,000 words so I will post it in 2 parts)


PART ONE:

"The enigma of Tarnjacken or brown smock brick Waffen SS"


Possible brick brown smock in use
The debate about the authenticity of this camouflage smock Waffen SS has more than 30 years. Have not been agreed yet experts and collectors of militaria German about it, and to this there are two opposing camps, which nourish their positions based on the interpretation of the available evidence. The origins of this piece is dark. His entry into the world of collecting military dating from around 1980, as we shall see. A question that has not been finally answered is whether these smocks were manufactured before May 1945, for the use of the Waffen SS, or whether on the contrary, is a manufactured after the 1945 piece for use another army, as reenactors garment or as a fake.

Brown brick originally Smock in a museum in Belgium

Many of these smocks were found with pockets internally marked but also unmarked copies have been identified. Have verified some with bleached marks, cut marks and sometimes crossed out in ink. The reason why some are stamped and not others, is a mystery. In Germany they started selling around 1980 by secondary dealers at the rate of $ 250.00, which in turn had to have bought for much less. The rumor was that they were imported from the East. Today are sold well below other smocks, between $ 1,000.00 and $ 3,000.00, due to the controversy surrounding them, although winds of change are blowing favorable in terms of its authenticity.


When analyzing a smock of these, it highlights the exquisite sight camouflage pattern that was printed it. His material is a strong type of cotton canvas, called "Doek" in Dutch (cotton duck) and inside pockets is made from herringbone twill HBT or a very peculiar kind. However, this smock materials are different from those used in other examples used by the Waffen SS, which, of course, does not imply that they are reproductions, as between the original smocks accepted as there are variations in the quality and type of material clothing. Some call pink smock, although no pink hues. Their colors include brown brick, rust, green, gray and carmine. Indeed, all keys of this fabric are observed in other types of camouflage used by the Waffen SS, although not in the same combination.

Some say the brown brick is a variant of similar tone found in the fabric of Italian camouflage used by the WSS in some type of parka and wearing combat. There is no doubt that the color and the design is excellent for confused with birch leaves in autumn and summer in northern Europe. Anyone who resides in Poland and Russia confirm that there is insurance in the northern areas countless birch forests.

Although this pledge has not camouflage pink, there is another pattern that if the SS exhibits, so that tone is still not out of the ordinary. Take for example camouflage sets combed cotton (brushed cotton) 4 pockets dots (dot) of the Waffen SS, which because of its combination of colors, were discarded and cataloged by some in the 1970s as reproductions , unable to imagine the reason for using a pink tone in a set of clothes battle. Today only the jacket of this set is sold as an original for about $ 4,000.00 in good condition.

The brick brown smock in if it matches the specifications of the smock of the first M-42 standard. As said, the material is a bit different at 3 or 4 variations known smock material, which are also different from each other. The camouflage pattern is almost identical to or oakleaf oakleaf A. The oakleaf camouflage scheme is a derivative of the plane tree, and oakleaf A is itself a variation of oakleaf pattern B.


The origin of brown brick smocks is still highly uncertain. However, their arrival into the world of collecting military dates back to 1980. A merchant named Johannes militaria Floch found several hundred pieces in Czechoslovakia in bales. Some were eaten away by rodents, but the middle of the bale were in excellent condition. All were washed to obtain documents for exports to Austria, as they say. As soon as the first copies reached the hands of the most experienced collectors camouflage Waffen SS, the majority concluded that they could not be original pre-1945 because the materials and color patterns were different from the known smocks. Similarly, unusual prints, which were not understood at the time, paid to the theory that they were not authentic. Inside some specimens marks and stamps that have been identified as a museum, movie studio and Russian military unit, like other pieces of clothing authentic German military of the time are preserved. It is also claimed and alleged that the pockets HBT material is different from other smocks, in addition to that is not known a Zeltbahn, helmet cover or cap in the same color scheme and material. In short, most of the lots found seem never to have been circulated, explaining that no copies were known before 1980. To this we must add that given the place where they were found, it is easy to deduce that the idea was to distribute them East to WSS troops who were fighting against the Russians. If we start from the premise that these smocks were produced in 1942 or 1943 (note the change in the flap pockets), we must doubt that many returned to the West after 3 years in Russia, for the life of a smock is calculated in 6 months, depending on conditions and intensity of use.

One of the most talked about theories is that the Germans produced this smock particularly in late 1944 or early 1945, due to logistics and transportation problems did not have time or resources to mass distribute. However, it is assumed that generally produced smocks were not so late in the war, because they were replaced by camouflage uniforms four pocket at that stage. It is said that at the end of WWII, the only items made of cotton material "Doek" or cotton duck were the helmet covers and zeltbahnen. It is worth noting that the Germans were the leaders worldwide in dyeing technology, so many of its patents were to fall into the hands of the Allies. Dyes that flooded the world during the 1960s were the result of the progress made by Germany following experimentation that lasted until 1945, particularly in developing camouflage Waffen SS. Add to that the fact that the dyed in many smocks looks modern, because the Germans were to the rest of the world in this science light years in 1943 still owed.

Another alternative that has been mentioned, particularly by those who argue that the smock was created post-1945, is that it was produced by and for the army of Czechoslovakia in the 1950s Although the theory is interesting, it looks unreal and unlikely. First, there are many reasons why armies prefer to standardize their camouflage schemes, the main keep his soldiers are killed by their own comrades or allies, as it secedió with the first American soldiers who used camouflage clothing in Europe during the war, which were confused with the Waffen SS troops. Second, the Czech Army is credited with countless often wrongly items that were actually produced by Germany during the war. It has recently been that many of these have been recognized for what they really are. It has also been said, for no apparent reason, that the Berman & Nathan produced in London in 1980.

[90th Light]

Article that a collector in Spain wrote about the "Pink Smocks" to weigh up the facts and thus sum it all up (read post number 1026 first),

Chris



PART TWO:


Consider the six (6) outweigh allegations have been made against the authenticity of brick brown smocks, like the claims and defenses against experts who believe in its authenticity.

1. "The material HBT-twill and herringbone cotton duck doek the smock or brown brick is different from other types of smocks"

The reality of it is that in all countries of the world were versions of HBT and cotton duck during the decades of 1930 and 1940. In fact, much has been written and discussed the seizure of the Italians materials for use WSS to Late in the war, but not much is said about the use of seized or manufactured in more than 15 countries occupied by Germany materials. What this means is that to clarify the controversy should not be determining the differences in materials, because, as said, there are differences between the type and quality of material they are made many of the smocks universally accepted as original. That is, differences in patterns, materials and colors in isolation are not sufficient grounds to refute.

You can stipulate that the material is not identical brick smocks other SS smocks. About this there is no dispute. However, it should not exist controversy between a smock made in 1938, whatever, and one made in 1940, there are also differences. Similarly a smock made in 1940 is different to one created in 1942 or 1943. Some suggest that these copies were commissioned at a textile factory in an occupied country, which would explain the difference in materials. If this is the case, it would be absurd to expect the brick smocks exhibit the same characteristics and smocks materials made in Germany. In fact, we do not know any German uniform made in an occupied country that is exactly identical to its counterpart made in Germany. It is common to find differences in the texture of the wool linings, colors and other details, and this does not imply that they are false.

It is important to note that at certain times, the SS had great difficulty in getting the quantity and quality needed doek or cotton duck fabric to meet their needs. Andrew Mollo discusses this and other researchers-authors-scholars. In the same vein, it is known that the Germans used widely, though unofficially, doek seized materials or cotton duck, which was of lower quality compared to the similar fabric of German origin. It is not difficult to imagine a situation in which the SS came across with, say, 5.000 meters of cotton fabric at a factory in Poland or Czechoslovakia, and decided to use it. It is also important to remember that at that time there were many variations of HBT in the geographic area of German influence, it was cheap and easy to obtain material. What it would be unreasonable to think that the SS is sent HBT rolls its own mills to foreign countries located hundreds of miles away, for use in contract factories.

Another argument in favor and explain the variations in the material is brick brown smock that existed in Norway during the war the SS Bekleidungswerk Nord, located in Oslo, manufacturer of all kinds of uniforms and caps of the SS. Although unknown to most collectors, a company called WC Møller in Drammen, oakleaf manufactured parkas with hoods and lining sheepskin. The parkas were created for the 4. SS Politikompani in 1944. The fabric used in these parkas oakleaf oakleaf standard German differs in texture, as in the present case. After the war, the robe was used by the National Guard of Norway. This case clearly illustrates the diversity of materials used by the SS for your clothes during WWII. Similarly, the manufacture and use of parkas SS Italian camouflage is another example of official use of foreign cloth and evidenced by the Waffen SS.

In short, the documented differences in doek or cotton duck fabric used in these smocks are not significantly higher than those found in other soda smocks and the Waffen SS. It has been shown that there are real differences in quality, composition and even the construction of the German uniforms in cotton duck, including WSS. Some types are lighter, others have a higher content of rayon and others are thicker texture. A. Mollo own crisis has documented the SS to obtain cotton duck fabric between 1942-1943. It is hard to imagine that the SS had to seize material from other countries occupied by Germany under pressure. A number of other items were created and used in this way.

Authors of the caliber of Michael A. Mollo and Beaver have written that in 1942 the SS was unable to meet demand for the supply of smocks for their divisions because of the shortage of doek fabric. This deficiency was combined with the fact that in mid-1942 the size of the Waffen SS tripled, so there arose the need to equip about 8 divisions at the end of 1943. The SS-Obergruppenführer Oswald Pohl himself, Head of the SS -Wirtschafts-Verwaltungshauptamt or the Administrative Department of the SS in charge of finance, projects and supplied the Allgemeine SS, recommended and insisted that the SS had to use materials other than doek if they aspired to equip combat troops smocks. The SS had enough manpower, the problem was the shortage of raw material and to some extent industrial capacity. This data is well documented. Among the alternatives to solve the problem mentioned HBT using cotton, among others. Thus, administration of the supplied WSS facilities used not only in occupied countries to increase their production capabilities, but it used materials available in distant foreign countries according to their needs.

This forces us to consider the fabric brick brown smock is viable as material above pre-1945. When compared with zelt fabric, which varied during the war, it is clear that Zeltbahn fabric is stronger, however, is undeniably smock material is so good and strong as the fabrics used for smocks Heer and winter clothes for the SS. An important factor is that apparently the brick material brown smocks was available, at a time of shortage.

A very interesting fact is that these patterns of camouflage smocks were printed using a roll printing process, which is an expensive, it requires a significant facilities and usually need industrial machines. The manufacturer of these parts, therefore, had to invest considerable sums of money on materials, dyeing, printing patterns, sewing machines, double needle, distribution mechanisms, and other areas of the process. Chances are that the manufacture of these pieces will be held under state-military supervision. In that sense, most of these smocks clearly show a stitching yarn type different thread used for manufacturing the pocket flaps, which in turn is different to the thread used to attach the flaps to the body of the piece. All this process is characteristic of an industrial environment to the extent that the assembly of the garment is held in different workstations. There are documented cases of prisoners of the concentration camp in Ravensbruck that reveal the establishment of production quotas for each workstation testimonies. A prisoner usually started work at the station requiring less skill, such as sewing flaps, and there could eventually be transferred to other stations that required more skill because of its complexity.

There are several logical excenarios that may explain the above and as mentioned variants. And the most logical presumed, as said before, that were manufactured under contract in a facility outside Germany in the Reich. If this is the case, it would also be explained by the level of detail in its construction. Clearly, if these items were created by replicators, down the road they could not recoup their investment, let alone make a profit, given the fact that copies were sold at less than $ 100.00 each in 1980 to certain wholesalers in Germany and perhaps at a much lower price.

This batch of smocks clearly was not manufactured in the German facilitates or facility that traditionally produced in mass for WSS. Nor they were created with material that would have been as surplus production. This fabric was printed specifically for this type of smock.

Conclusion: the difference in building materials smock brick can not be the only reason to classify it as a post-1945 piece.

2. "brick brown smocks are not original because the fabric is not the same waterproof capacity of other types of smocks."

It has been said that the materials brick brown smock had never been used by the WSS for combat clothing, supposedly because their ability to repel water is lower than other smocks. However, this argument collapses when we noticed that during this same time period the SS smocks used exclusively manufactured HBT due to the shortage in doek fabric, material that has no waterproof property.

To this must be added that the smocks, by their nature, are not necessarily better due to its ability to repel water, unlike zelt. In fact, even if he were given a waterproof smock treatment, if it is subjected to a wet environment, it will not protect the wearer from the rain by 100%. On the other hand, if too heavy a material is used and adjusted to make it waterproof, the resulting part will be very warm for daily use in combat conditions.

Bender reference in his book on brick brown smock

There is a myth that needs to be clarified. The fabric used in smocks made in Germany is not waterproof. So if we assume that the fabric brick brown smock is not 100% waterproof, it does not represent evidence against adverse character. Another factor that may have influenced is that the application of chemical treatment based on wax called Peristol whose purpose during wartime was the waterproofing, may have been the victim of washing which were the subject these smocks once left the iron curtain .

Conclusion: The impermeability is not a sine qua non or necessary to authenticate a Waffen SS smock requirement.

3. "The smocks are not original brown brick because Zeltbahn not known, helmet cover or cap in the same color scheme and materials"

The reality is that there are other patterns of smock and variations which do not exist or Zelts helmet covers, and still are considered as authentic pre-1945 pieces. Michael D. Beaver and others have recognized. In fact, some recognize that making helmet covers and zeltbahns that correspond to each type of smock was not universal practice, but rather a standard that allows exceptions.

Even some of the helmet covers recognized patterns and materials found in the market are manufactured after 1945 replicates with original material.

Conclusion: No one can say that the existence or even zeltbahns covered in colors and materials on which there is consensus authenticity test one thing or another.

4. "elastic brick of brown smocks are different from waist elastics other smocks WSS"

False. Tests elastic smocks extracted from these reflect that its construction is consistent with the elastic manufactured prior to 1945. It has even been able to identify the brand. The relevant question is whether they are German. However, one can safely say that even if they were not Germans, they come from somewhere inside the Reich.

5. "There are no photos of the time showing the use brick brown smock"

First, it is a fact that these garments were not mass-produced, according to the standards of SS and Waffen compared to others. There are records that prove the manufacturing production of nearly 8,000 smocks in a few months. Clearly this was not the case brick brown smock. Manufacturing or late distribution during the war could also be a reason for this, because at the end of the war was not so common shooting, particularly in the Eastern Front, where it is presumed that were used at least some of them in 1943 as it speculated.

In addition, one must ask: What percent of original photos from the era known oakleaf camouflage showing where you can ditinguir certainly if type A or B? When photos of the SS that survived in Russian Front in 1943 are observed, it is very difficult to distinguish the type of camouflage accurately in over 30% of them. The reality is that there is a good chance that pictures of this kind of smock which have not been identified as such by being in black and white are known. Thousands of pieces of clothing had to be manufactured and distributed to have a good chance of a photo captured one of these pieces in use and survive to this day. Additionally, if the vast majority of smocks were not distributed, it is practically impossible to have pictures in use.


Nevertheless, there is a photo where smock seen in identical brown smock use the brick. This image shows a group of 4 soldiers WSS in 1945 with their smocks in a trench. While you can not say with 100% certainty that it is the smock in controversy, because it is a picture in black and white, the fact remains that could very well be the final and definitive test.

6. "The brick brown smocks are not authentic because they have not found their drawcords"

This is a very weak argument. If the primary criterion for a smock was authentic is the installation of drawstrings at the origin, or in the factory, there were perhaps a dozen today smocks of the original WSS worldwide.! The fact of the matter is that it is more sensible to think that the laces were packaged separately to be placed on the distribution point, or by the soldier himself, so that will shorten the time of manufacture / assembly and could be distributed faster the troops.

Conclusion: This statement is very poor and can be dismissed outright.

Returning to the issue of domestic brands, it is essential to emphasize that the prints found in brick brown smocks are found in parts identical to universally recognized as authentic pre-1945 marks.

This is evidence that many of these retain proprietary smocks pictures found on other garments of the era. This mean that the brick brown smocks were in the same inventories German military clothing wartime, that authentic other clothes.

One of the marks of the smock is a triangle, which is considered a standard Russian symbol, which is stamped on the objects captured during the war. You can also see from the captured weapons. Another of his marks is the word "фильм" which translates to film, which could mean that smocks were used in war Russian film industry or military films. Other brands consist of round seals that have been identified as military, it can be shot marks, marks of use or storage of acceptance in time of war or other.

The aforementioned proprietary marks or stamps found in the pockets of some parts offer another thing worth considering. The appearance of brick brown smocks represents the first time a piece of clothing WSS exhibits such marks, implying that the theory that were created after 1945 to fool weakens because before 1980 no one knew of these prints capture, museum, theater or film from the East. That is, there is no reason to stamp these parts on or before 1980 in order to add realism to a false smock, if these prints were not known by collectors, scholars, researchers, authors and experts of German militaria, not It was not until after the Soviet Union was dismantled finally emerged for the first original articles with these brands, from former Soviet republics.

By applying a little science to the mystery, just as there has been interesting evidence favoring the authenticity of brick brown smock. Comparative data on the thickness or density compared to other smocks considered authentic. Let's see:

Smock M-40 in good condition: 0.39 mm.

Smock M-40 used: 0.39 mm.

Smock M-40 almost new: 0.39 mm.

Smock M-42 almost new: 0.40 mm.

Smock M-42 in good condition: 0.40 mm.

Brown brick Smock M-42 in good condition: 0.40 mm.

Brown brick Smock M-42 in poor condition: 0.40 mm.

Obviously, brick brown fabric smock has broadly the same density as the smocks M-40 and M-42. While this is not proof, the fact remains that a significant fact in its favor.

Moreover, when considering the fabric with a microscope and when compared with other samples doek of the time, you can see some differences between each other. However, between different samples of fabric made 100% in Germany, many differences were also observed, which clearly shows that the differences identified are not evidence of lack of authenticity. In fact, it is almost impossible for equipment manufacturing in Germany during the war produce a fabric identical to one made in a European country under German influence, either in 1938 or 1943. Even there testimony from experts who observed brick detail material brown smock in 1981, which tends to indicate that in 1981 the fabric looked and perceived very old. A part made in the era of 1970, for example, can not match that appearance.

Similar marks on trousers dot 44 authentic

Another detail that emerges from the microscopic analysis of the fabric is its utilitarian nature and somewhat raw, consisting of a standardized tissue with minimal finishing, frequently observed in military clothing of the time. Of note it is the way the reinforced holes in the groove of the neck and the reinforcement line perpendicular to the ends of each seam and tension point smock were sewn. It is simply an extraordinary job.

Finally, to thoroughly examine the thread and stitching the smock, and compare them with sewing thread and other original uniforms of the time, the obvious fact that brick brown smocks are pre 1945 manufacturing.

This forces us to confront head-on the theory of counterfeiting with specific information on the construction and detail of brick brown smocks. If we give credence to the conventional explanation that are mere copies of original pieces, we would have to accept the following:

These smocks came to Austria in lots of well-constructed pieces, such as smuggling, from a border with the communist bloc ... after considerable investment to enable a printing plant fabric, threads get pre 1945 elastic materials, buttons, dyes, , antique sewing machines, etc ... after all the work of cutting have been carried out, hand sewing, assembling, etc ... after the aging process artificially parts, exposing them to rodents and after adding moth ... "false" post-war in pockets, no one would understand or accept not until 10 years later ... after washing and passing contraband across a border of the Cold War at the risk of arrest and criminal prosecution prints ... down the road to sell at a loss to perhaps $ 50 per smock ...

It does not take a genius to conclude that such a scenario is absurd and improbable ..!

There is a copy of brick brown smock that has been documented as coming from the Victory Museum in Arlon, Belgium, which is provided a picture in this article. It is said that the owners of the museum collected entire inventory of close to the same places, and after the war it opened to the public. In 1989-90 the museum was sold, and most of the articles in camouflage Waffen SS were acquired by a Danish collector. One of those pieces was a brick brown smock exhibiting wear and tear in addition to multiple print defects typical of the methods of the time. It is known that an incorrect alignment of the rollers, or lack of dye caused these imperfections. Such defects are not reproductions, because the counterfeiter you're looking to match a known pattern perfectly.

No doubt that houses the camouflage pattern of the fabric is different in some respects to other smocks known, due to the size of the print roller. The absence of other material / pattern in the pieces used to cover small areas also differs from other known smocks. However, these pieces were created with a degree of accuracy and very complex. No reproductions of the 1970s with this level of perfection known. Even fakes to this level of detail would not have failed to match the colors and the right pattern. What's the point of spending so much work to print such pieces, using the correct machine and HBT fabric pockets, finally failing colors? We reiterate that the level of detail is not indicative of a reproduction 30 years ago. Much less we are facing a made for reenactors, as the military recreations clothing does not occur at that level of detail, it being unnecessary, nor was "mistaken" in camouflage colors and patterns piece.

Moreover, genuine insurance smocks exhibit variations attributable to the changing conditions of wartime production, and hiring new / foreign producers. In other words, the big question they have to answer those who do not believe in the authenticity of brick brown smock is: Why a forgery at this level of perfection in details was manufactured, and even tried smock match a model known and accepted in the world of German militaria? For a counterfeiter created a smock that is not a copy of another model, but rather a piece of sturdy and functional military clothes with their own merits?

In the case of printing rollers, it is not difficult to think that a textile factory in Poland, Czechoslovakia or Hungary used by the WSS contract had rollers available that were 5 to 10 cm longer than those used by the SS meas. This would explain the apparent difference between the patterns of the fabric brick brown smock smocks compared to others. Of course, the above is somehow evidence that this piece was made after 1945, because no one has documented each and every one of the producers of material SS camouflage.

Using the above reasoning, it is clear that they are not utility smocks post-war films. One thing is that were used in a film, and another thing that were created for the film. It is impossible and unnecessary to have created such garments, the level of detail and quality, to appear in a film. Known is that the prints "Stani" and other brands of inventory were applied to other military equipment surplus SGM seized by the government and allocated to the Czech cinematography studies. The best known example is the hundreds of SS officer caps in Italian M-43 material, which first met in the late 1980s and early '90s, when they emerged from inventories Stani in Czechoslovakia. No doubt the authenticity of these today.



In summary, the following data on the brick brown smock are known and accepted by most of the experts:

1. Hundreds of these smocks appeared simultaneously in 1980 to southern Germany.

2. All had been recently washed.

3. Many had rodent damage, stains, rotten elastic and other damage attributed to having been on the outside of packages smocks for 35 years. Most were in good condition, because it came from the inside of the packages which were preserved against air, dust and rodents.

4. Details of manufacturing, such as the lining of the pockets, sleeves, cooked reinforcement reinforcements buttons, buttons brands and material were and are of a size and an unknown and unseen accuracy in reproductions of the time, and even today they have not been matched in many ways.

5. Some have red and black smocks own pictures in his pocket and others have crossed out or removed brands.

6. In 1980-1981 these pieces were sold at half the price achieved for other originals, due in part to its entry into the market was several hundred.



In this stage, what conclusions we can come to discuss in a calm all available data? We explore the following possibilities:

1. The only way to prove that these are replicas smocks post 1945 is identifying the people who created them, or finding something in the dyes or materials that indicate beyond any doubt that they are modern manufacturing, not to have existed before 1945 .

2. The best way to prove that are original is identifying a copy in the hands of a veteran who has preserved to this day.

3. There are several logical reasons why a group of several hundred smocks was stored at the end of the war without being distributed. In fact, hundreds of thousands of items suffered this fate. For example, at the end of WWII 40,000 remained unused tropical helmets 2nd model. One can speculate that if the production order was for, say, 2,000, and 1,500 were distributed to 3 or 4 battalions in the east in mid-1943, possibly the rest was stored in a warehouse of the SS in Poland or Czechoslovakia, to that were seized by the Russians, Czechs and Poles.

4. The pattern does not seem to be an experimental one, if not an adaptation of an existing pattern printing rollers larger.

5. The colors are different from other examples, like many other items of German camouflage.

6. There is no doubt that they are unique. They are unlike any known smock, but they are also different from any known replica.

7. Changes in materials, dyes, patterns and colors, rather than the exception, were the norm as to camouflage the WSS.



Similarly, there are a number of interesting questions unanswered:

1. If these smocks, despite its magnificent pattern, are reproductions created to mislead and confuse collectors, where the second generation of reproductions that corrected the errors of this first generation is?

2. If they are fakes, because only a small number was manufactured?

3. How could achieve such a high level of sophistication in creating the smocks, and ultimately fail to mimic the colors of other original smocks?



There is a story of a collector and member of the Wehrmacht Awards.com very provocative group, which explains very well the origin of brick brown smock. On one occasion, he met Johannes collector Floch in MAX militaria show in Pennsylvania, USA, and asked about the controversial smocks "Pink". Johannes confirmed that indeed he had acquired these smocks many years ago at the hands of a contact in Checosolvakia, some were in packets, and others were loose. His understanding was that these smocks probably came from the "back door" of a film studio. He assured that he had nothing to do with manufacturing. He also said he always thought they were real, and they were simply seized by the Russians, who finally ended up in the hands of a study in this material.

On another occasion, the same collector had a conversation with an old militaria collector whose experience is extensive and unquestionable. This was what the individio expressed about "the smocks-ground coffee SS appeared on the market over 30 years ago. I bought one in 1981, and had a stamp that read "ЛЕНФИЛЬМ" which means Lenfilm (which is a film studio in Leningrad, now St. Petersburg). When people began to say that they were reproductions, I changed mine. Several years later, visit the costume department of Lenfilm and had the opportunity to ask your boss if they had had on their inventories of German camouflage smocks, and showed him a photo of mine. The manager recognized him, and told me that one point had between 50-60 of these smocks, but who had sold or transferred in the late 70's when he began work on Lenifilm (the practice of exchanging clothing has always It was common across the studies, in which case the new study stamped his seal piece, up above). When asked if they had made such smocks in Lenfilm, the director found me very funny question and said no. Several old employees Lenfilm reminded those smocks and they said that they had been obtained from the Russian Defense Ministry. The manager checked his records accession and said that in fact the study had received the smocks of the MOD in 1947. "

If we give credence to this story, we must conclude that the brick brown smocks are authentic items and possibly manufactured pre 1945 used by the Waffen SS. No doubt that some experts continue throwing doubt on the authenticity of this smock, while others defend their originality. In the text "Waffen SS UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENTS" Andrew Steven and Peter Amodio, a reference to such smock is made. However, other authors omit to allude to it.

No doubt that these pieces are different from other smocks oak leaf WSS, but to say that because of this can not be above the 1945 production, is a wrong conclusion. Hopefully someday doubts about this exceptional combat smock, so that it can take its rightful place among his contemporaries are cleared.

You be the judge ...

For more information / sources:

"Waffen SS UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENTS" Andrew Steven and Peter Amodio

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=260576


Posted by Michael at 13:22



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[longislandercjv]

Chris,
you must be congratulated on your incredible research!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but your post is clearly
the result of in-depth efforts!

I currently have one for sale on Estand, and hope any interested
parties take the time to read the entire post!

With unquestionable original smocks going for over $9000,
these pink smocks are a bargain at a fraction of the price,
especially when research like yours further indicate that
there is a good chance that they are original.

Chris Varrichio
longislandercjv
zoods@aol.com

[viva_giulio]

The article is a summa of the 1076 replies. Sincerely we are at same point. I am annopened mind collector but without proofs we are talking about nothing. AAgain.

[kammo man]

That's a lot of typing
Still does not make them real
You covered many points wrong.
Stating facts the way you want them to read

Buyer beware of the pink fake smocks

[pete]

.

It is indeed an excellent summary into one article of all the blood, sweat and tears of the author but also our forum members and other sources collectively over 35 odd years to examine this interesting (and exciting possibility) item in the realm of the "we have seen it all, we know everything" regarding WSS Camouflage. Its balanced with healthy portions of human intelligence, forensics and scientific study (ongoing) on levels that still impress me and stimulate free thought and learning with each read. I look forward to new levels of information and testing dyes etc. Its really a reminder we have not seen it all and how to harness political bias from damning real genuine objects of history based on improper and incomplete assessment, in the name of fear and $$$.

I do hope however that no one individual with $$ signs in thier eyes will ever attempt to suddenly put it all in a new camo book summarized by everyones work and then claim they discovered all this themselves. This has been an ongoing group effort from both sides of the fence and the middle too and the people watching both gardens and the fence as well at the same time. My guess is when these are finally openly accepted, blessed etc with the scales tipped with even more factual information this may likely occur out of human nature $$$$. I hope if so all sources are named fairly for thier contribution to the study.



Best regards,

Pete

[kammo man]

That's a lot of typing
Still does not make them real
You covered many points wrong.
Stating facts the way you want them to read

Buyer beware of the pink fake smocks

[Robert H]

Copy's no matter what others think, for me no need to read the post.
Its always that way, good stuff doesn't need much words, and copy's need quite often defense. And this debate is quite long and a waiste of time.

[RobertE]

Short, wrong posts condemning potentially good items by closed minded collectors who have "seen it all" is not helpful either.

regards, Robert

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

Some additional infos that unfortunately (?) are missing from the “report” of Chris…

1. Hundreds of these smocks appeared simultaneously in 1980 to southern Germany.

>>> “found” and firstly sold by one (and only one) dealer, Johannes Floch, it is confirmed by many members on the WAF and elsewhere.
Johannes Floch is most famously known for all the fakes he flooded.
Just google “Johannes Floch militaria” to see the dozen of various fakes he proposed over the years (including many topics on the WAF).
He may have surfaced dozen of good items, but unfortunately his good side are soiled by all the fakes he put on the market.
Again, we have many people praising Mr. Floch, many others hates him. And Mr. Royster said that Mr. Floch confirmed him that the smocks were fakes and were made in Prag.

6. In 1980-1981 these pieces were sold at half the price achieved for other originals, due in part to its entry into the market was several hundred.

>>> the Bud O’Toole report from 1988 imply that the smocks appeared in 1988-4 years ago = 1984.
QUESTION : What is the source for the 1980-1981 period of appearance ? The “Lenfilm” story ? Check below.
[B]Also Bud O’Toole confirm that Johannes Floch was selling them in the US (easy targets ?) for 275 usd, so US dealers were able to sell them 500 to 600 usd.

QUESTION : what was the “normal” price for an original Oak Leaf price at the time ? Was a price of 4600 usd in the upper range (as testified by Bud O’Toole in his 1988 article about some pink smocks proposed for that price in a LA militaria show) ?

The price paid to Johannes Floch was doubled by US dealers. This is quite different.
If Mr. Floch price was 275 usd, it was 16 times LESS than the 4600 usd price which may have been the price for an original one.
If US dealers were selling them 500 to 600 usd, it was 9 times LESS than the 4600 usd price which may have been the price for an original one.

2. The best way to prove that are original is identifying a copy in the hands of a veteran who has preserved to this day.

>>> To this date, it has still to happen.

1. If these smocks, despite its magnificent pattern, are reproductions created to mislead and confuse collectors, where the second generation of reproductions that corrected the errors of this first generation is?

>>> Imo irrelevant question. Why does any fake need to be overfaked ?

2. If they are fakes, because only a small number was manufactured?

>>> Remember the SS Tuxedo Badge debacle ?
To make fake smocks is probably more expensive thanks just make a mold that can be used for hundred of copies. 100 smocks is already a lot imo (cf Bud O'Toole report).

3. How could achieve such a high level of sophistication in creating the smocks, and ultimately fail to mimic the colors of other original smocks?

>>> Because you are not a good faker, like most of the fakers ? How many bad fakes are still selling even if “advanced collectors” known they are fakes ? Check how many ugly Germanische Leistungsrune or Croix de Guerre Légionnaire are sold each year.
And maybe the colors are hard to get right because this is the easiest way to fail over the design of any object ?

Strangely enough, nothing is said about the famous stamp.

I don’t know if anyone already rode what they were saying, but it seemed to be “Minsk-Film” (“Минск-Фильм”), and I’m currently trying to find local people that can tell us if a “Minsk-Film” company existed in Minsk (or somewhere else in the Soviet Union). So far my russian historian friend Oleg who made the search never heard of that company.
Another famous company from Moscow is “Mosfilm” (“Мосфи́льм”) but it can’t be that one on the stamp.

QUESTION : anyone can help us in Minsk to investigate the stamps ?
The two explainations I have about the said original palm tree with similar stamps is :
- that an original “Minsk-Film” company existed and had at least one SS (original) smock was surfaced. Then maybe the guy who made the smocks had the idea to “pimp” his pink smocks with similar stamps (the two types are not identical) to legitimate them.
- the original palm tree smock was surfaced at the same time than the pink smocks, and was used to legitimate them. “Look this one is original and is having the same stamps”. And a fake stamp was then added. I personally think that it is doubtful, but well still possible. How many collectors denazified items, destroying them ?
I’m sure that people know more about the origin of that palm tree smock.

QUESTION : what may have been the possible explainations to have 1) undocumented smocks produced by ? 2) that were stocked at a bielorussian movie company (for which movie or theater play ?) and then 3) exported to Czech Republic (or elsewhere) and 4) finally "found" by Mr. Floch ? I'm not even talking of "probabilities"...

About the “Lenfilm” stamp, if the story is legit (which I clearly doubt, this is just so implausible), the smocks of the story can’t be the pink smocks.
“Минск-Фильм” is nothing like "ЛЕНФИЛЬМ".



Anyone can check that for example on the pictures recently provided.
I clearly think that someone badly rode the “Minsk-Film” stamp, and unfortunately made up a story that was bogus. It would be interesting to have the name of that so-called “old militaria collector whose experience is extensive and unquestionable”. Couldn’t this “expert” be infact one of the US dealer, trying to legitimate the fakes he was selling ? I'm just asking.

The "Lenfilm" story can be infact the epic fail of the pink smock saga...

Remember the “Champagne SS Decal” recent debunking ? Remember the “famous specialists” ? This is the same for many items, which were debunked after years.
The best example I studied is the Croix de Guerre Légionnaire, and again the story is very similar : one single seller “finding” a lot of ugly (fake) Croix, this time even telling different stories to different buyers (epic fail !), and with all the “big famous specialists” spreading the lies (for various reasons) over the years until I started to work on it with a few collectors and friends.

See You

Vince