"Pink" smock or not?

[Fritz]

It´s funny that it seems in the end all about these stamps...so represent these "pink" smocks - apart from the stamps - the perfect superfakes or what?!

Thorsten:

Not at all. Search this thread in order to find lists of issues with these smocks. The stamp is merely a straw to clutch at for those who are in denial of all these issues.

Cheers

[Fritz]

My point is that stamps that are known to be original are now confirmed to be the same ones that are in the smocks.

And I believe that has never been argued by anyone as long as we add "appear to be".

Before these stamps were found, they were listed as a potential key to the smocks authenticity; post 327 does not say that such stamps would not be of value -

In post 327, you state:

"...That doesn't work for me, even if they had a Kremlin stamp with Stalin's signature. Sorry."

You have stated your position on any stamping in these smocks, above. Given your criteria - that authoritative stamps carry no weight with you because you don't believe the smocks to be original - I understand why you would give little value to the discovery of identical stamps in original garments.

Any of course includes those that are now being presented here as a "proof" - or any other for that matter. And back then I was very well referring to the announcement that such items with museum/studio stamps have "surfaced".


Cheers

[Thorsten B.]

Thorsten:

Not at all. Search this thread in order to find lists of issues with these smocks. The stamp is merely a straw to clutch at for those who are in denial of all these issues.

Cheers

Ah, ok - thank you for clearifying - now I get it.

Well, here are great threads about clothes and uniforms - like the one with the complete SS uniform found in the attic recently and shared and everybody was "AHH" and "OHH" and no doubts from no one.

And then there are threads like this.

[Fritz]

Post 327 for Thorsten and others:

We have:

- No drawstrings
- No other camo material mixed in
- No other camo material with the same pattern just with other tones mixed in
- No period picture that backs this type up
- No zelt, no cover, no cap no kombi in the same pattern
- Odd material
- Odd print
- Odd thread (grey and green)
- The very unlikely event that these got captured from some ss depot in the soviet union in 1943.
- The list could be continued

Now all these facts are being "excused away" in order to support these items authenticity. That doesn't work for me, even if they had a Kremlin stamp with Stalin's signature. Sorry.

I know many people like them and I respect that but to me these will never be original german ww2 garments and I will post my opinion.

Cheers

[phild]

From the pics provided it seems that these stamps have been on the smocks for a really long time - was a collector´s price for an original smock already high in the 50ties, 60ties and early 70ties?

I highly doubt that.

It´s funny that it seems in the end all about these stamps...so represent these "pink" smocks - apart from the stamps - the perfect superfakes or what?!

Very well said (above) and this is exactly what has to be considered.

RobertE is correct in all of his comments as well about these stamps and the smocks. I know for a fact that these stamps (these EXACT STAMPS) were in these smocks in Oct. of 1981 at the latest....no argument no question no retreat on this. I saw these smocks at that time being passed on BECAUSE of the stamps. I can tell you where I was standing in Germany when I first examined a batch then as well....so this (the age of the stamps) is not a question it is a fact.

Pete has done his homework and for me the issue is closed as to these smocks being pre-May 45. At some point we will get to the bottom of where they were made during the war. I tend to agree with Chris (90th Light) that they were probably made in one of the Baltic States. My evidence is not as strong as his, but I know that the SS clothing center in Riga was contracting locally for uniform items and it is documented. I trust Chris as much as anyone in this hobby in terms of his word as well.

Getting back to Thorsten B's post, unless these were made up for the Soviet Museum system in the 1950s or maybe 60's and therfore stamped with the same property stamps as captured original German uniform items....they are WWII period.

I simply do not believe that these or 50s-60s era Soviet museum reproductions......that makes no sense nor does the construction of these smocks support that "theory".

Thanks to all who have posted.....esp. Pete who kept this alive againt a lot of un-due attacks.

[phild]

Straight reasons

Originally Posted by Fritz
We have:

1.No drawstrings- The ones found were un-issued and may have never had drawstrings installed, A lot of accepted SS do not have original drawstrings. I see it meaning zero either way....most every repro and fake that I have ever seen has a drawstring.
2.No other camo material mixed in- These were not German made by all evidence, the factory would not have made previous German Camo so ther was no other pattern of scrape to "mix in".
3. No other camo material with the same pattern just with other tones mixed
in- A factory making a camo print for the first time 800KM from Germany using a sample to go by and using all local materials, dyes and technology...it will be unique... I promise that.....all other such non-German items are as well.

4.No period picture that backs this type up- not yet at least....well in so far as we can reconize at least.....which is maybe 1 in 10 photos of camo smocks if that many can the pattern be determined for sure....most seem to not have been issued anyway so I don't expect a lot of photos! Also there are accepted German patterns that only appear in one or two phots known and some (at least one pattern) is not known in any photo...what is different with these?

5.No zelt, no cover, no cap no kombi in the same pattern- Again several accepted German patterns are known to have no covers or zelts made of the same pattern....or for sure no zelts and very few (if any covers) so nothing different here.

6.Odd material- See #2 above, they used what they had or could make at that location/area....

7.Odd print- See #2.......print is exact same as oakleaf A with an extension to fit a larger roller.
8. Odd thread (grey and green)- Same as #2, they used what they had and it worked fine......Italian made German uniforms use a different thread as well.

9. The very unlikely event that these got captured from some ss depot in the
soviet union in 1943.- I have no idea when these were captured, but SS storage facilities (forward supply points for Divisions and regiments) being captured as early as 1943 is a fact. My guess is that these were captured in 1944...maybe later.....lots of things never got issued for different reasons.


Now all these facts are being "excused away" in order to support these items authenticity. That doesn't work for me, even if they had a Kremlin stamp with Stalin's signature. Sorry.

I know many people like them and I respect that but to me these will never be original german ww2 garments and I will post my opinion.

Cheers"

My responses above are not excuses, but rather possible explanations for the differences. Collectors should take note that about 1/2 of the "concerns" raised in the above list also could be applied to a number of 100 accepted German SS smock patterns.

What happend with these smocks 30 plus years ago is that they well judged to be fake becuase they did not compare 1:1 with known German SS smocks. A lot of people staked their reputations on these being fake and actually feel like they oave more to loose than those who think that they are orginal.

I am now 100% satisfied that they are pre-1945 German (contracted not manufactured!) SS smocks. It will be interesting to see where this goes with time and maybe more information.I think that the key lies with the records or recollections of the Russian museum staff that were around in the 1970s and earlier.

[RobertE]

"The stamp is merely a straw to clutch at for those who are in denial of all these issues."

No one is in denial of anything - there are no facts to deny that have any meaning on the discussion.

The subjective points you listed have all been discussed, and could apply to original examples of these. As Phild pointed out, they are not examples of known German manufactured smocks, and dogged comparisons are as useful as arguing why SS eagles woven in Belguim are different than German made ones. They just are.

If the rejection of the stamps is an indication of the attitude of those against these, no sense in carrying this further. Anything can be explained away - photos when discovered will be faked, footlocker vet finds will be tampered with, field worn example with string will be aged and modified, ect.

s/f Robert

[kammo man]

"Pink" smock or not?

The pink jackets are still crap

[RobertE]

I love the way this thread goes back and forth. What started with an actual input citing new evidence ended with this useless opinion on the subject.

s/f Robert

[phild]

The pink jackets are still crap

...but they are ORIGINAL crap! Pretty much the same as the hbt SS smocks from a quality standpoint, maybe a bit nicer.

[90th Light]

I love the way this thread goes back and forth. What started with an actual input citing new evidence ended with this useless opinion on the subject.

s/f Robert

The "kammo man" has run out of ammunition in this argument and all he can do now is throw his pistol at you or try to hit you with his rifle butt.

If I am wrong Owen then please present objective facts as to why. Not subjective emotion based on nothing more than misplaced perceptions,

Chris

[90th Light]

You've had some incredible luck there. I have never met a german veteran (not to meantion veterans) that cared for such details about camo items. To all of them it was "camo", not plane tree, oak or marsh pattern ... or pink... just "camo".

None of them knew where the stuff was made and none of them cared.

I wish I would have met just one veteran as enthusiastic about camo and its sources as your veterans.

Cheers

Hello Fritz,

please keep in mind that for the Estonians, the war did not end in May 1945. They were still fighting well into the 1950's. Some had to get out and could not stay in Europe for a range of reasons. Australia and New Zealand represented a new beginning in more ways than one. No one gives a stuff if you are a communist or a fascist out here. Everyone gets a "fair go" and immigrated here from some where for god knows why.

If you want to know more about such "fighters" who came to live out here "down-under" then have a read of the book shown below ( "Strawberries with the Fuhrer: A Journey from the Third Reich to New Zealand" by Helga Tiscenko ) with the image of the SS general in his Reichswehr uniform. This is the Reichswehr officer who could have shot Hitler during the Munich Putsch of 1923. Instead he joined him and became a general in the Waffen SS.

I worked with Helga for over 5 years. What she told me was amazing. Have a look at this video clip to see what I mean http://vimeo.com/8571249

But what her husband Nick told me was even more interesting. He was an Imperial Russian by birth. He fought with the Estonians. He knew the Pink Smock as Estonian SS. He was a surveyor/ engineer by profession. A man who never missed any details in anything he was involved in. Proper recognition of such cammo could have meant life or death for him in those times.

Nick is only one of the Estonian, Latvian or Lithuanian fighters/ SS who I have met and interviewed about the war or what uniforms/ lack of they wore,

Chris

[90th Light]

Estonian SS heading for the front.

Look at the mixture of camo and non-camo being worn.

They used what they could beg, steal, borrow or get for themselves. They never had enough and had to find ways/ new sources to make more,

Chris

[90th Light]

The hard fighting SS.

And look at the way that they are wearing a mix of camo patterns.

No consistency and a total lack of respect for collectors trying to work it out 70+ years later ,

Chris

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by Fritz
We have:

1.No drawstrings- The ones found were un-issued and may have never had drawstrings installed, A lot of accepted SS do not have original drawstrings. I see it meaning zero either way....most every repro and fake that I have ever seen has a drawstring.
2.No other camo material mixed in- These were not German made by all evidence, the factory would not have made previous German Camo so ther was no other pattern of scrape to "mix in".
3. No other camo material with the same pattern just with other tones mixed
in- A factory making a camo print for the first time 800KM from Germany using a sample to go by and using all local materials, dyes and technology...it will be unique... I promise that.....all other such non-German items are as well.

4.No period picture that backs this type up- not yet at least....well in so far as we can reconize at least.....which is maybe 1 in 10 photos of camo smocks if that many can the pattern be determined for sure....most seem to not have been issued anyway so I don't expect a lot of photos! Also there are accepted German patterns that only appear in one or two phots known and some (at least one pattern) is not known in any photo...what is different with these?
5.No zelt, no cover, no cap no kombi in the same pattern- Again several accepted German patterns are known to have no covers or zelts made of the same pattern....or for sure no zelts and very few (if any covers) so nothing different here.
6.Odd material- See #2 above, they used what they had or could make at that location/area....

7.Odd print- See #2.......print is exact same as oakleaf A with an extension to fit a larger roller.
8. Odd thread (grey and green)- Same as #2, they used what they had and it worked fine......Italian made German uniforms use a different thread as well.

9. The very unlikely event that these got captured from some ss depot in the
soviet union in 1943.- I have no idea when these were captured, but SS storage facilities (forward supply points for Divisions and regiments) being captured as early as 1943 is a fact. My guess is that these were captured in 1944...maybe later.....lots of things never got issued for different reasons.

Phil:

Look at that post of yours, do you realize how much "explaining" is obviously needed? That has never been a good sign.

Cheers