"Pink" smock or not?

[Dr. Strangelove]

Owen

What Owen is trying to say, in American Parlance, is that if you got one in the Pink you got your Nose in the Stink.

[pete]

.

I was hoping photos of periodicals or other would get on here. Do we have anything from 1980-82 period or mid 80s?. The only thing however that this article says to me is that this is the perspective of an individual in 1988 on all known and accepted info, or the "safeguards" (much as they still exist today) up until that point. Would this man have believed the items which appeared 1990 and after, SS HBT Smocks, Printed insignia and a whole lot more in 1988? Just something to think about in my opinion. He also states these are an Austrian copy-He seems to know this concretely by this statement? Can we possibly get some of these old dealers/other into the disscussion to speak more on why they said what they said at the time and how would they see it now?

Regards,

Pete

[RobertE]

The periodical is an interesting read, but it doesn't show anything other that the writer beieves he's identified a new replica on the market. There is nothing to indicate that the smock he found to be bad is the pink smock under discussion.

regards, Robert

[phild]

The periodical is an interesting read, but it doesn't show anything other that the writer beieves he's identified a new replica on the market. There is nothing to indicate that the smock he found to be bad is the pink smock under discussion.

regards, Robert

Both you and Pete are 100% correct here. This opinion by O'Toole means nothing. I was aware of it when it came out in the 80s and reflected wide spread opinion of the time and now.....but was/is just opinion.

These smocks use at least 2 very distinct variations of thread. In most examples that I have examined (but not all) the main work is done in a gray thread and the pocket flaps are sewn (including the button hole) with a heavier green thread. Both types contain no post war synthetics that I can detect.

I recognize that opinions leaning toward an open mind on these much less a belief that they are pre-45 mean nothing to anyone with differing opinions, but I also submit that it works both ways and just an opinion from those that these are not and can be pre-45 is worth nothing (regardless of the source) without something specific to back it up......and there has been exactly nothing in that meets that specific standard offered on these since the threads started about 10 years ago.

What I know is that the main objection to these is based on the differences found in the fabric, thread (color) print variation and dye shades used in these smocks when compared 1:1 to other smocks that are known original. While not a useless excericse in determining what may be good or bad in 3rd Reich collecting, comparion is not the end all be all by itself.

I was/am hoping to get the knowledge further down the road on the stamps that are found in these. I think in time more information will be found on these and maybe it will lead back to some documentation.


As a parting shot it has been intersting too me that even though Mr. O'Toole was widely regarded as an "expert" on SS camo and really the first to produce highly accurate repro SS smocks (in the 80s I recall) there are MANY features that are found on these pink smocks that are ONLY found on orginal smocks that HE DID NOT GET CORRECT on his repros because he did pick up on these details when developing his repros......many have discussed this with me and it is interesting that many of the things that are correct on these pink smocks were not incorporated into even the best repros for about 20 after the pink smocks turned up......A huge point of interest too me along with the period Soviet museum stamping.......yet to be commented on.

[kammo man]

Dr ,
Your a poet ............and you know it .
owen

[pete]

.

No further movement yet on the stamps, hoping for photos of various stamps encountered in the early 1990's from him. I wrote myself as well to film studios and the National museum but no replies yet, or neither from my post asking for help. A few guys here or there have been posting various stamps though, slowly. I watched a youtube documentary on the POW/MIA Lab about a US MIA soldier in France 1918 and they were using certain technology to bring out letters long gone, or, look under material or marks covering ink or letters etc with different shades of special light. I wonder could a lab, using the same kind of technology look under or see the stamps letters/markings under the ink blacking out the stamp? Maybe this technology or test could be found even outside a lab?


Regards,

Pete

[Pieter Verbruggen]

...these pink smocks are definitely not fakes.
Pieter.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

...they are just not German WWII...
Pieter.

[pete]

.

Supporting comments? Min 50, max 120 words.


Regards,

Pete

[Fred Fokkelman]

In the 80's you had all kinds of magazines and picture books where the pink smock was depicted as real... Apparently some were convinced to be genuine. But even in those days there were fierce discussion about the originality.
Many years ago I bought one after being convinced by the seller.... after inspection I send the piece back. The fabric, thread, camo pattern.... all different. Not for me...

[phild]

In the 80's you had all kinds of magazines and picture books where the pink smock was depicted as real... Apparently some were convinced to be genuine. But even in those days there were fierce discussion about the originality.
Many years ago I bought one after being convinced by the seller.... after inspection I send the piece back. The fabric, thread, camo pattern.... all different. Not for me...

I do not know 100% that they are real.

If real I do not know if they were made outside of Germany.

If the were made outside of Germany I do know that I would expect and demand that none of the material used would be just like what was used in German counterpart.....it never was in any other German uniform item produced outside of Germany.

Germany DID NOT send material to other countries to produce war material...if anything it went the other way.

[RobertE]

I had been actively collecting in the 1980's for a decade, and subscribed to all the catalogs that were available. I still have hundreds of pounds of them, including the staples like DG, Manions and other dumping grounds (their rep wasn't that bad in those days).

I have gone through these publications, and have not seen the pink smock identified in color references where it can be positively identified by photo reference, or in description where the smock being sold is linked to the baled finds under discussion. They were around, certainly, but so were numerous others smocks that were easy to identify as repro.

I agree they are different, Fred. But they are built using quality materials, to stand up to combat wear, which was their intended purpose.

If I had spent 10's of thousands of dollars per piece accumulating a collection of very narrowly defined and undebatable original smocks, I can see how some could be resistant to the availability of a large stock of smocks being accepted as real. It could hurt the value of ones' collection.

That doesn't change the fact that while different, these smocks have NO clear faker lineage and are built like a period combat garment. The stamps may provide insight into who owned them after the war, or prove them to be fake or original.

At this stage, and after 10 years of banging our jaws about these, NO ONE has presented anything definative for or against them. Like my own statements, there are just opinions and subjective logic.

Unless someone has been holding out, and has something other than smug comments alluding to knowing more than has been presented, I think the court is still out on these. I agree the answer will likely revolve around the stamps.

s/f Robert

[pete]

.

It's totally different then the item in question, but for me these are possibly just like the good old M65 Jacket made by 1) The US Govt in USA for issue and for example 2) M65 by Rothco, Propper or Alpha industries has also been made for the civi market for years too. Number 1) is always made the same, maybe different blends in the material but always looks the same and feels the same,. It has the same materials, zipper etc. Number 2), well you can have them made in USA, all the same as well, and identical pretty much. But you can also have them made with all the right equipment to follow govt spec of the issue m65 but under Alpha license for example but in Eygpt or the Dominican republic, and they are the same maker under license, same cut etc, but: the material is something cheaper and much different, stitched similar but not as good softer, thinner and the cloth features do not hold up to the quality of US made Issue or Alpha M65. But, you know its Alpha, just you find the small tag that says made in Eygpt for alpha industries. These Smocks to me are something like this, in a way. Then you can compare a third world country M65 style jacket from Iraq, Pakistan or some other place and its also the same design but materials are something to be desired.

Regards,

Pete

[pete]

.

Not the same stamp but again similar design.

[Leroy]

First, let me say that I do not, and never have, collected SS material. I do, however, have an abiding interest (as we all seem to) in the "stories" surrounding controversial items. Having followed this thread, I made it a point, at the recent MAX, to speak with both Johannes Floch and another experienced collector, both of whom I have known for many, many years, about the antecedents of these smocks.

Johannes confirmed that he had, indeed, acquired these smocks many years ago from a contact in Czechosolvakia, that some were in bundles and some loose, and that it was his understanding that they had probably come originally from "the back door" of a film studio. He had nothing whatsoever to do with their manufacture and has always believed that they were real and simply leftover captured material in Russian hands that ended up in the Eastern studio system.

My other conversation was with a longtime collector who does not participate in online discussion forums, although he does occasionally "look in" to see what the people who do participate are talking about. His experience with militaria, to my own personal knowledge, is extensive and I vouch completely for his credibility. This is what he told me:

He has no personal interest in the authenticity of the "earth brown" (a/k/a "pink") SS smocks that first appeared on the market more than thirty years ago. He got one of these smocks, with what he recalls as an pinkish, earth-brown shade in the camo pattern, in 1981. As he recalls, it had the stamp "ЛЕНФИЛЬМ", or LENFILM (the film studio then in Leningrad, now St. Petersburg). When people started saying that these were believed to be copies, he traded it off. Some years later, he visited the costume department at Lenfilm and had the opportunity to ask the chief of the department if they had ever had any German camouflage smocks, and showed him a photo of one. The director recognized them and told him they had once had 50-60 such smocks, but they had been sold or transferred from the studio in the late 1970's when he first began to work there. (There was sharing between studios and, generally, the predecessor stamp was crossed through and a new stamp affixed.) He then asked if the studio had made these smocks. The director found his question very amusing and told him they had not. Several elderly staff members at Lenfilm recalled these smocks and told him that they had come from the Ministry of Defense. The director checked their accession records and told him that the studio had indeed received them from the MOD in 1947.

I am making this posting simply to pass on further information. I'm not going to "debate" it or get into any extended conversation about it. I just thought that those who are debating this subject might want to read it. I have no further information.