"Pink" smock or not?

[phild]

The weave of the pink is also not as tight as the zelt .

No it is not. Of course there are several different qualities of German zelt fabric that can be found that were used during the period, but I agree with you that this is not one of them.

Russian shelter fabric is not as tight as German zelt fabric either....at least not all of it, but Russian shelter fabric was used extensively in German uniform production, albeit private made uniforms.

My position all along has simply been that it is a fact that SS smocks were produced out of other material than zelt material (hbt) so therefore these smocks can not be ruled out as original because that are not made from German zelt fabric....end of story. Now that does not make them period I realize, but it does not make them fake either.

The only conclusion that can be made 100% about these smocks is that they were not made at the same facility (s) that made the other accepted SS smocks nothing more or less. Some feel that they were made prior to 45 and some feel that they were not.

As far as I have been able to find in all 800+ posts that have been made on these in this forum alone (about 15 different threads) is that nothing as been posted or shown to demonstrate that these are post 1945....nothing whatsoever. A lot has been posted to show that they are not just like German produced SS smocks......I've got that....o.k. so what?

As far as what has been shown about these smocks as of now is that there is nothing detected on them...i.e. proven to exclude them from being made prior to May 45.....if something about what material is used in them or the technology used in makeing them did not exist to after 1945 can someone please let us know?

[Fritz]

Perhaps RobertE can post a photo or two of this effect on the autumn side of the double needle made seams. I would like to get you take on it and anyone else's who knows about these things.

Yes, why not, it would anyhow be good to have it posted here.

[Fritz]

As far as I have been able to find in all 800+ posts that have been made on these in this forum alone (about 15 different threads) is that nothing as been posted or shown to demonstrate that these are post 1945....nothing whatsoever. A lot has been posted to show that they are not just like German produced SS smocks......I've got that....o.k. so what?

I believe it has to do with how tolerant you are towards abnormalities. The flipside of the coin is that too much tolerance will open your collection to fakes.

And these smocks require a lot of tolerance IMHO.

Cheers

[phild]

I believe it has to do with how tolerant you are towards abnormalities. The flipside of the coin is that too much tolerance will open your collection to fakes.

And these smocks require a lot of tolerance IMHO.

Cheers

I realize that what I am about to write is blindingly obvious, but the major problem with these smocks is only that they do not compare exactly with Texled produced smocks. Of course Texled produced smocks do not compare 1:1 with each variation of themselves either, but these Texled variations are identified and accepted. There have been no points found thus far to show that these circa 1980 "discovered" smocks must post date 1945.....based on materials (fabric, thread, dyes) or sewing technique, which I should add is the same on these smocks as was called for (specified) on the originals, a detail that no fake that I know of got right for some 20 years after these showed up....pretty amazing.

The second problem is how they appeared....that is in one large lot, unworn, in-expensive price.

The third problem is that no period photos have been identified with these showing these smocks nor have any solid vet finds of them been made or at least proven. IMO this 3rd problem can be understood and tied to the 2nd problem above.

Oh, by the way I have to ask anyone out there again; What about the Soviet museum property stamp in the left side pocket of most of these smocks? That would be the stamp (3 different stamps actually) that had handwritten property numbers and then was inked out and usually then cut out of most these prior to them showing up??? These would also be the same stamps that scared a lot of collectors away back then and conivnced others with the help of dealers not owning these smocks that these were movie house prop stamps for cheap film props....which we all know now is not true...they are in fact museum stamps.

[Fritz]

I realize that what I am about to write is blindingly obvious, but the major problem with these smocks is only that they do not compare exactly with Texled produced smocks. Of course Texled produced smocks do not compare 1:1 with each variation of themselves either, but these variations are identified and accepted. There have been no points found thus far to show that these circa 1980 "discovered" smocks must post date 1945.....based on materials (fabric, thread, dyes) or sewing technique, which I should add is the same on these smocks as was called for (specified) on the originals, a detail that no fake that I know of got right for some 20 years after these showed up....pretty amazing.

The second problem is how they appeared....that is in one large lot, unworn, in-expensive price.

The third problem is that no period photos have been identified with these showing these smocks nor have any solid vet finds of them been made or at least proven. IMO this 3rd problem can be understood and tied to the 2nd problem above.

Not only Texled but any smock I have seen (and believe to be good).

A huge problem is that, no matter if you look at a smock made by a regular business or made by a shop in a camp, they all share certain features.




Keep in mind that the fabric was not made by the company that made the print and the company that made the print didn't make the smock.

So we have, in this example, three independent links in the manufacturing process. Yet, with these smocks, each link has added its abnormality.

- Fabric maker made a strange fabric

- Printer made a weird print

- Tailor shop used grey and green thread


And this is highly unlikely.

As far as I am concerned, IMHO, it is impossible.

[phild]

Thanks, Now we may be getting someplace! I have always been under the understanding that ALL SS smocks, helmet covers and zelts came from more or less the same source........a big multi located complex of complexes called Texled. In other words they were all SS sourced and made basically at SS owned and operated facilities...... I also thought the this included the weaving of the duck material.....we know for sure that the SS operated wool weaving mills at one of more of the KZ locations for example.

Maybe this has been my problem all along.....that is I thought that all of this camo was from their own system and most of it made in their own camps?

I realize that this probably is not exactly true of the early block printed camo of the late 30s....but I thought that after 1940 or so it was all SS produced.

[Fritz]

Thanks, Now we may be getting someplace! I have always been under the understanding that ALL SS smocks, helmet covers and zelts came from more or less the same source........a big multi located complex of complexes called Texled. In other words they were all SS sourced and made basically at SS owned and operated facilities...... I also thought the this included the weaving of the duck material.....we know for sure that the SS operated wool weaving mills at one of more of the KZ locations for example.

Maybe this has been my problem all along.....that is I thought that all of this camo was from their own system and most of it made in their own camps?

I realize that this probably is not exactly true of the early block printed camo of the late 30s....but I thought that after 1940 or so it was all SS produced.

No, the SS was relying on civil businesses throughout the war. There is a "late war letter" of, I think Pohl to Himmler, where he states that various (civil) contractors are located in parts of germany now controlled by the allies. And that this is "somewhat" of a problem.

Texled was a business owned by the SS that made all sorts of things, also fabric. But they could not at all meet the requirements of the SS and the (armed) SS relied on the army as a "sponsor" for goods, raw materials and contacts or access to civil companies in wide parts from day one to the end.

Cheers

[phild]

So I don't think that you would dispute that when varied suppliers are involved (most the case in wartime Germany) for something like this that there will be differences between items from the each supplier? I would assume that the doubt comes in (for you at least) that it would vary this much....say between a pink smock and a "regular" German duck (not hbt) example?

I understand that position, but I am not to that point myself.

[kammo man]

Again .....
the pink fabric is nothing like war time fabric.

[Fritz]

Phil:


The point is that you can take any accepted M42 type 1 smock of whatever maker and compare it to another and they will share certain features within certain (regulated) norms.


Now these pink smocks here break rules and norms in an extent that is not acceptable for an original, anyhow as far as I am concerned.

I will summarize some of the issues again:

Fabric, not seen in another M42 type one before

Print, not seen in any item before

Unusual thread for an M42

So when you have an original smock and compare it to another one of the same timeframe you will see similarities: Quality of the fabric, tones of the print, shape of the camo pattern, thread used etc.. Some of these can very - But not all, IMHO.

Just take zelts for instance, WAREI was a large private maker that produced for the Wehrmacht and SS. You can take a 1944 WAREI SS zelt and put it next to another 1944 SS zelt made by another maker and you will see a number of consistencies that are within a norm. May it be the quality of the fabric, may it be the print or may it be something else.

Cheers

[Fritz]

Again .....
the pink fabric is nothing like war time fabric.

I agree, 100%.

Cheers

[SJP]

No Doubt

These are copies .... as have been ...always will be. These "pink smocks " are nothing

more than the equvilent of "Alteste" in Visors.

This is from Bud O'Toole, around 1988 ,a news letter he would put out. A "early "

expert ( and faker), who knew good from bad waaaaay

before the advent of the internet.
________________________________________________
Cheers Steve

[Fred Fokkelman]

These are copies .... as have been ...always will be. These "pink smocks " are nothing

more than the equvilent of "Alteste" in Visors.

This is from Bud O'Toole, around 1988 ,a news letter he would put out. A "early "

expert ( and faker), who knew good from bad waaaaay

before the advent of the internet.
________________________________________________
Cheers Steve

Case closed.

[kammo man]

As stated to YOUNGER collectors ...........

FAKE .


owen

[jacquesf]

As stated to YOUNGER collectors ...........

FAKE .


owen

Can you please explain your post in at least 50 words to a maximum of 120 words. Jacques