"Pink" smock or not?

[RobertE]

My point is that many of the differences have been reported and repeated - but they are really not differences at all when consiering mass production.

[kammo man]

Poor mans .....smock .....

Thats all it will ever be .

Fabric and printing both inferior to ANYTHING pre 1945 in the TR .

[phild]

My point is that many of the differences have been reported and repeated - but they are really not differences at all when consiering mass production.

Nice comparison. When one really carefully examines one of these smocks and understands the degree of work and structural detail that went into them combined with the fairly large number that came in...and what they sold for wholesale in 80/81 ......well if they were fake whoever made them lost thousands of dollars back then and there is no way anyone can deny that.

I am now very comfortable with what they are. As for the fabric and the print quality...well it is heads and shoulders better than most anything that I have ever seen any any pre-45 winter reversable item or a Heer water pattern smock...for starters.

[90th Light]

Poor mans .....smock .....

Thats all it will ever be .

Fabric and printing both inferior to ANYTHING pre 1945 in the TR .

Thus Owen,

they will go nicely with the Poor mans ......SSM43 .....

wool, fabric, printing, lining and cardboard all late 44 or 1945 Third Reich inferior types

Seriously, if anyone has a "one button/ printed trap" SS M43's for sale then please PM or email me. I am very, very, very keen to buy an example or examples,

Chris

p.s. threads worth reading about these late war SS M43's which show more details of the cap and trap.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=printed+trap

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=printed+trap

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=printed+trap

[Dr. Strangelove]

Ssm43

I like that Hat, very nice.

[rob NL]

Aha Ben Overhand. Here in Holland we call him Ben TOVERHAND. And TOVER means magic so you guys do the math... ( the starter of this thread)

[Fritz]

In terms of actual material and print comparison, I offer these pics to highlight some similarities between a forum-accepted zelt and a pink smock.

First, when you feel the material there is not a substantial difference - with your eyes closed, you can mixed them up. Thus, I feel the "completely different material" characterization is not accurate. They are comparable in terms of weave, texture, and feel.

The more faded of the two is the smock.

I am sorry to say but IMO that comparison rather supports the thesis that these smocks are postwar.

Cheers

[RobertE]

I don't agree, Fritz. They are very similiar in weave, texture, and certainly quality of construction.

The colors and printing are close in shade, and they are not any sharper on the zelt than they are on the smock.

We have established that they are not identical to a standard German produced variety.

Glad the M43s were brought up, I think both of those are mine. Like the smock, they differ in some aspects from the standard Dachau types, but their unique features do not make them fake. Just different.

s/f Robert

[phild]

I am sorry to say but IMO that comparison rather supports the thesis that these smocks are postwar.

Cheers

I think that the comparison only supports the thesis that these smocks (nor the fabric, thread, dyes or machinery use to make them) were not produced by the same maker(s?) of the other accepted SS smocks. If anything else has ever been found or posted and backed up otherwise I would really like to know what the deal breaker (making these post-45) is?

I will concede and have many times before that the basic mechanics of producing one of these pre-45 as an SS contract or alternative manufacturer operation would have been practically the same as faking one in the late 1970s. That is a sample would have been provided, some degree of reverse engineering would have occurred .....although probably pre-45 a pattern template would have been provided and a book of specs and diagrams of cut and sewing details as well.....based on what I have seen of similar wartime German uniform making guidlines, these would have then been altered were required to fit the capabilities of the machinery and fabric available (like was done with the 100% accepted hbt rear center seam SS smock for instance!) and the batch run would have been done.

At this point nothing meaningful has been offered to account for the Soviet Museum stampings to have been applied to a fake smock in the late 70s or 1980.

I realize that if a reconized lab performed a through test of every detail on these smocks and found nothing inconsistant with pre-45 manufacture/materials that it would do nothing to change the opinions of those who have made up their minds on these...and most have admitted this...probably the same with a period photo of one in wear.

[kammo man]

90th,
For me the poor mans M-43 ...is rich.
I have always liked them.
o

[phild]

I don't agree, Fritz. They are very similiar in weave, texture, and certainly quality of construction.

The colors and printing are close in shade, and they are not any sharper on the zelt than they are on the smock.

We have established that they are not identical to a standard German produced variety.

Glad the M43s were brought up, I think both of those are mine. Like the smock, they differ in some aspects from the standard Dachau types, but their unique features do not make them fake. Just different.

s/f Robert

Robert has made a number of excellent photo posts of these over the years. We have not had a really extensive close up comparison of many of the key areas however. For example the strengthening stitching for the arm air slits, the work that went into the loops and how they are made and applied, the eyelets and how the sleeve seams are strengthened on the cuff ends, selvage on the cuffs, lower sleeve sections are joined to the upper and how the side body seams are strengthened at the hem end and underarm end....it really goes on and on.

I know for a fact that today at least in some countries (I bet in every country) that these how seams are reinforced are a major inspection point for every article of military textile....this aspect of the these smocks struck me back in 81....as no fake that I saw back then did this or did it well and I did not see it on any fake until HSC got cranked up about 8-10 years later.

Getting back to the lack of drawstrings, I would flip the issue and ask why would drawstrings be left out of a fake or a movie prop...or post war W-SS clone smock made for some unkown unit or reason for a Eastern European country?...... I mean they spend an hour per smock to hand sew about 10 eyelets the hard way and then don't bother with a lace to complete these for collectors or a movie?

[Fritz]

They are very similiar in weave, texture

Yes, but they shouldn't. Your zelt is a late war zelt and this type of smock should be of 1942 - midd 43 issue.


You can't take a late war zelt and compare it to a midd war smock. Take a 1942/43 zelt and compare it to the smock. You will then see the abnormalities.

Cheers

[Fritz]

Getting back to the lack of drawstrings, I would flip the issue and ask why would drawstrings be left out of a fake or a movie prop...or post war W-SS clone smock made for some unkown unit or reason for a Eastern European country?...... I mean they spend an hour per smock to hand sew about 10 eyelets the hard way and then don't bother with a lace to complete these for collectors or a movie?

When you are using the wrong drawstring on all of these it will be a red flag to many.

They might very well have had drawstring but of a wrong type. Hence they were removed and couldn't be replaced since originals or "good reproductions" weren't available. If they were made as fakes I am quite sure they have never had drawstrings.

Cheers

[phild]

When you are using the wrong drawstring on all of these it will be a red flag to many.

They might very well have had drawstring but of a wrong type. Hence they were removed and couldn't be replaced since originals or "good reproductions" weren't available. If they were made as fakes I am quite sure they have never had drawstrings.

Cheers

Fair enough it is as good of an reason if they are fake as my reason is if they are real I suppose.

I was going to send you a pm regarding your opinion on the chain stitch characteristic that is seen on the reverse (in these cases the Autumn side) of the double needle produced seams in the sleeve seams and in the side body seams as I recall. Is this normal for double needle sewing to create this effect on the reverse of the seam? Is it something that depended on the exact type of machine used?

Perhaps RobertE can post a photo or two of this effect on the autumn side of the double needle made seams. I would like to get you take on it and anyone else's who knows about these things.

[kammo man]

The weave of the pink is also not as tight as the zelt .