"Pink" smock or not?

[phild]

shocking debate
well i live in a EU corner near CZ and east Germany,i have seen since last 20 years so many attic,barn,and woodwork finds that i realy cant say today how many it was a lot!!!,i talk abaut SS camo ofcorse,never ever any item was like this pink smock.

Again I understand this concern, but if the production of these was limited (many good reasons to believe it was) and given the numbers found un-issued....it is easy to understand why they have not turned up in "finds" or clear period photos.......they were all or mostly sitting in a warehouse until circa 1980.

This may seem like an unlikely excuse being offered, but it is really not that un-common of an occurrence and similar can be found with other types of items.

There have in fact been at least a couple of these Red smocks to have been claimed by very solid (reputation) collector/dealer to have come directly from US vet estates......but the couple of claims that I am aware of have been dismissed by those who feel that these smocks are fake.

It all becomes sort of a self full filling truth type of thing....if the item is fake (in someone's opinion) then any evidence that it is otherwise must be fake as well.....and since no real evidence have emerged to show it is real then it must be fake......make sense????

[kammo man]

Bla bla bla ......


fake .


owen

[Hilton]

It should not at all be impossible to trace the smocks if they have a history within the firm Bermans & Nathan, later Angels & Berman, and now Angels;

http://www.angels.uk.com/history.html

A lot of "the old ladys" in this firm has worked here for MANY years. But I cant at all understand why they would have stamped them with the mystery stamps?

[phild]

It should not at all be impossible to trace the smocks if they have a history within the firm Bermans & Nathan, later Angels & Berman, and now Angels;

http://www.angels.uk.com/history.html

A lot of "the old ladys" in this firm has worked here for MANY years. But I cant at all understand why they would have stamped them with the mystery stamps?

There are a number of problems with the idea or theory that these smocks originated out of Bermans & Nathan. The main on being that it has been established and proven to my satisfaction that these smocks were introduced by Floch in Vienna. Bob H. has stated on this forum that he saw these at about the time Floch obtained them along with some standard German made SS smocks in the mix (I know salted right? Yea right!) Bob also stated that some of these were rodent damaged (yea by the trained mice) and that some were very dirty with decades of warehous dust and had been stored in bales...with outside ones showing the worst wear and the inside ones mint.....some were in scraps.

Most of what Bob stated I can confirm with my own eyes and word, but I saw these a bit later and not "in situ". By the time that I saw them many or most had been washed.

Now I guess that it is possible that Floch bought them from B&N....for maybe 25 bucks each....but it still does not account for the condition nor does it make any sense from a business standpoint.....as dozens of dealers in the UK would have paid (and did pay from Floch) a good deal more.

B&N origin also does not account for any of the questions about the smocks......and for sure if they were commissioned by B&N they were not made as fakes....but as costume props.....these show a lot of work for that purpose......hand sewn eyelets, hbt pockets, button re-enforcemnt patches and EVERY stress point extra stitched, slevage used in the cuff ends as per pattern cutting layout, third row garnishment loop re-enforceing, double needle sewing, and then why the criptic non-Geman stamps.....in some and the cut up pockets and in the inked out markings in others.......? Most of all: all of this in 1980....on smocks that would have HAD to have been made years earlier given the time requirements.....for a market of maybe a few hunded serious SS camo collectors world wide with no more than a few dozen who would have even noticed most of the features above....to be offered wholesale in mass for aound 150-$200 each.......come on folks!

[tgn]

Bob H. has stated on this forum that he saw these at about the time Floch obtained them along with some standard German made SS smocks in the mix (I know salted right? Yea right!) Bob also stated that some of these were rodent damaged (yea by the trained mice) and that some were very dirty with decades of warehous dust and had been stored in bales...with outside ones showing the worst wear and the inside ones mint.....some were in scraps.

I hear the exact smae story from Bob years ago. So either he is a consistent liar, which I know isn't true, or that is indeed what he saw. Either they are real or part of a very elaborate ruse perpetrated by Floch, which may indeed be true...

Tom

[RobertE]

Bla bla bla ......


fake .


owen

Not very helpful, Owen. You have stated your opinion repeatedly these garments, with nothing substantial to support your point other than light speculation. Phild continues to try to reason through the discussion, and others have suggested a more forensic approach - sounds good.

You are the only one to state that modern camo materials were used in a pink smock construction, which appears to be your main evidence against them - at least, it is the only factual point you've brought forth. To hold you to the same standard as those that advocate for these, do you have a picture of such construction?

Has anyone ever seen obvious post-war materials in the construction of these smocks? How about original materials from other patterns used to build a pink smock?

Hasty dismissal of items found in quantity with weak or no pedigree has contributed to some wonderful original items being literally trashed. We have time. We don't need to rush to verdict.

s/f Robert

[kammo man]

Robert .

I have handled hundreds of German SS camouflaged pieces that were WW2 manufacture .

The pink does not even come close to an original wartime manufactured item , in fabric , construction and dye .

the debate is just that a debate .

The pink in my opinion is a complete white Elephant based on my personal experience .

If you choose to believe they are real WW2 ............good for you , I am happy for you .
I really am .

But just because they are an older fake , that conned many at the start does not mean they continue to fool any serious SS camouflage collector .

owen

[pete]

.

As much as it would be nice to find their origins and pronounce they are originals it is also equally important to find out if they are post War, rather then just pigeonhole them! Isn't this what collecting or the moral stance our forum is all about?

Pete

[RobertE]

Fair enough, Owen.

Foreign manufacture could account for both the material and the shades used in the pattern, which has been suggested and I think is possible.

I would submit that the construction is not off at all. Beavers books alone shows just some of the variables, and I would suggest this type smock is much more similiar than dissimiliar to known original construction methods.

Bob Hritz saw these in bundles, as described. Other long-time collectors HAVE seen these in collector finds. That is SOME provinence, as far as I'm concerned. Certainly enough to continue thoughtfully examining these - they are different, yes, but replica? Different matter.

s/f Robert

[kammo man]

Robert ,
I reposted another older thread about these .
Have a quick look mate .
owen

[Turi]

pink is sexy

As far as i am concerned, This is the most interesting thread of the New Year!

Kind regards,
Salvatore

[Felix]

As far as i am concerned, This is the most interesting thread of the New Year!

Kind regards,
Salvatore

Oh, this single thread has been going on since 2007, but I agree it is very interesting thread. Other threads with discussions have been going on since at least 2004 and that counts only for here on this forum on internet. Its an old mystery that I and many others wants to be solved.

I am 50/50 on this kind of smock. I would not say its a repro. No signs regarding construction or heritage points at that. It might be a post war east Europe army Issue, but that is not a repro, but a post war item. However too many balls are in the air to call it either post war or original. Some new facts has come forward about a possible middle hand or source, but yet, its not verified. Contradiction info to that these came out of former Czechoslovakia at around 1980 by Johannes Floch and brought into west Europe and to the market.

A very good job has been done by some members here to shed light into the darkness, however nothing that yet can be called evidence. Thats why some of us continue this quest, and preferably in a forensic way, to get the truth, either way, in the end.

Several memebers that I respect have posted both for and against this "pink or preferably - different smock".

I and others has asked for the first sorce mentioned, Mr Floch, to bring further info. All I have seen is sheer silence. I do not even know this Mr Floch. If I did I would have contacted him a long time ago.

Many questions have been asked and so few answers given. I do wish more people would contribute with more info about the first source. And then continue. No Czech members with past military service or museum contacts? I think you can help us out... Please do so. It is after all nice be nice around Christmas time.

Let it continue till its finally solved...

//Felix

[pete]

First of all is JH still alive? If so, is he still operating a Militaria or Jewlery bussiness in Vienna? And, can anyone who knows him make contact or provide his contact details?

Pete

[besslein]

Oh, this single thread has been going on since 2007, but I agree it is very interesting thread. Other threads with discussions have been going on since at least 2004 and that counts only for here on this forum on internet. Its an old mystery that I and many others wants to be solved.

I am 50/50 on this kind of smock. I would not say its a repro. No signs regarding construction or heritage points at that. It might be a post war east Europe army Issue, but that is not a repro, but a post war item. However too many balls are in the air to call it either post war or original. Some new facts has come forward about a possible middle hand or source, but yet, its not verified. Contradiction info to that these came out of former Czechoslovakia at around 1980 by Johannes Floch and brought into west Europe and to the market.

A very good job has been done by some members here to shed light into the darkness, however nothing that yet can be called evidence. Thats why some of us continue this quest, and preferably in a forensic way, to get the truth, either way, in the end.

Several memebers that I respect have posted both for and against this "pink or preferably - different smock".

I and others has asked for the first sorce mentioned, Mr Floch, to bring further info. All I have seen is sheer silence. I do not even know this Mr Floch. If I did I would have contacted him a long time ago.

Many questions have been asked and so few answers given. I do wish more people would contribute with more info about the first source. And then continue. No Czech members with past military service or museum contacts? I think you can help us out... Please do so. It is after all nice be nice around Christmas time.

Let it continue till its finally solved...

//Felix

Felix as i live 100 km from Czech republic,i know this market very well since early 90,i have never seen one in cz,NEVER.and i do have seen theater,movie,small school "war display"museum item,and a big haul of diferent items taken from army depots.

[bubble]

Hi,
post-war Czechoslovak army was not producing and never do not use these pink smocks. There are not records, notes and reports anywhere.. I watch a lot of 10-12 years of Czechoslovak webs about military history or CZ collectors webs, but I've never seen these smocks - not period photos, or anywhere in collections CS uniforms.. about these is not anywhere on the CZ internet or army books no mention .. These pink smocks are unknown in CZ! (except of course the SS collectors). Over time was in CZ many finds the original SS smocks, but NOT these pink!
Shortly after the war CS army used various remnants of clothing produced for the Germans - but only as work clothes, or is temporarily worn by border guards or various small military units in the borders (my father was in the Army from 1951 to 1953).
These smocks in postwar Czechoslovakia never not officially produced. The idea that the post-war CZ communist army so exactly duplicate the SS outfit is nonsense..