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**John Pic** · 12-09-2007, 11:35 PM

I just wanted to hear what you had to say about it Nick thanks for sharing.

**brannow** · 12-10-2007, 12:14 AM

Man how you guys can get so off amazes me. This stuff did not come from a Dr. Go and read my posts again. I said I did not know about the Doctors other stuff meaning the Doctor in Chicago, I sold the uniform to.

Here it is again guys so listen closely. I had heard about this collection about 6 years before. The guy who owned it had Alzheimer's and had been put in a nursing home. The brother did not want to sell it before his brother died. Well 6 years later I got a call and to my surprise along with the Japanese swords was a pile of German uniforms, Hats, Swords Helmets, Flags ect. Some of the flags were still in the original tubes he had mailed them home in after the war. This is what started me collecting German items. Most of the German stuff was just unbelievable. The guy was in both Germany and Japan after the war and sent piles of stuff home. All the stuff was un-messed with and original. This was about 8 years ago I think.

I found GDC on the web and posted some pics and all the sudden every big dealer and collector in the country was calling and emailing me trying to buddy up.

I have also emailed Kris and told him if the tunic does not sell I would love to buy it back because I know it is good.

I am sorry so many of you guys have been burned bad and don't believe anything but things like this do happen.

Believe me I have been burned a few times for a lot of money but I don't constantly cry about it. I just move on and learn my lesson!

I only posted this because I felt it would help clear up some of the mystery behind this uniform.

Hope this helps!

**brannow** · 12-10-2007, 12:33 AM

One other thing, you guys act like nothing ever comes out of the woodwork. Well there are piles of stuff coming out of the woodwork every day and furthermore piles of more stuff is still waiting to be found out there. I get calls and emails everyday from all over the country as well as from all over the world. I once bought 2 very high end Japanese swords when I was in Japan that a homeowner found in the walls of his house. Now that is a story!

**phild** · 12-10-2007, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by NTZ View Post

With that said rock solid provenance is the only thing that can make a prudent collector take that leap of faith. From what I seen so far it is shaping up to be a he said –she said or my favorite; “It came from a real old collection, it has to be good”. When I hear that classic I don’t know if I should laugh or cry.

Bill, Thanks for re-stating that.

Nick, I'm curious about what the nature would be of the burden of proof that you would require before declaring that an item had "rock solid provenance"? I ask this very seriously and with no intent to be sarcastic or confrontational. The main reason that I ask is that despite tying to decide this for myself for a very long time, I have never been able to settle on a single answer. Many of the most expensive and eloborate frauds that I have been made aware of in this hobby have been accompanied by extensive paperwork and in some cases live vets along with it!

**John Pic** · 12-10-2007, 12:37 AM

Well real stuff isnt always "textbook one looker" but I guess many expect it to be.
Wonder why so many dealers bombarded you to buy the non textbook stuff? Im being silly, we all know the answer. Thanks for the clarification.

**nutmeg** · 12-10-2007, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by brannow View Post

One other thing, you guys act like nothing ever comes out of the woodwork. Well there are piles of stuff coming out of the woodwork every day and furthermore piles of more stuff is still waiting to be found out there. I get calls and emails everyday from all over the country as well as from all over the world. I once bought 2 very high end Japanese swords when I was in Japan that a homeowner found in the walls of his house. Now that is a story!

This is a very true statement. Collectors fall into two basic types with some shades of gray inbetween, those who buy mostly from dealers and other collectors and those who buy mostly out of the woodwork. The woodwork buyers know there is still a ton of stuff out there . The other group is limited to what they see already in circulation and have a very different outlook on things being less accepting of nontextbook items.

**Sayle F** · 12-10-2007, 01:23 AM

Woodwork

Amen to that Mr. Nutmeg!

**John Pic** · 12-10-2007, 02:52 AM

Kevin your avatar and amen dont go together...I think.The woods are full of nice things and Im begining to think you find them all.

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**NTZ** · 12-10-2007, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by phild View Post

Bill, Thanks for re-stating that.

Nick, I'm curious about what the nature would be of the burden of proof that you would require before declaring that an item had "rock solid provenance"? I ask this very seriously and with no intent to be sarcastic or confrontational. The main reason that I ask is that despite tying to decide this for myself for a very long time, I have never been able to settle on a single answer. Many of the most expensive and eloborate frauds that I have been made aware of in this hobby have been accompanied by extensive paperwork and in some cases live vets along with it!

My definition in this case since we know it had a breast eagle would be a direct vet pick up. One who did not continue to collect post war. If the vet did not add to his collection i .e. more tunics or alter anything for display. At least in this scenario you know what he had was picked up this way.

As I said from the beginning of the thread. Not only is it possible that a once Heer tunic became an SS prior to 1945 but in this case (a doctors tunic) it somewhat makes sense. But when you can take a $1,000 tunic and turn it into a $10,000 tunic in a matter of minutes the chain of custody and provenance needs to support this too.

You guys are killing me with this “well every good SS tunic doesn’t have/need rock solid provenance” stuff. Of course it doesn’t. An SS M-42 is an SS M-42 and if the insignia does not look messed with who cares about provenance. Here we are talking about an officers tunic which could be Heer or SS with a shadow of a breast eagle. Give me a break!!! What collector in their right mind would not want “rock solid” provenance to back that up.

It seems some of you are not very consistent in your posts. In most cases you are skeptical of everything and in this case when you should be you are not as skeptical. Why is that, the dealer ?At least I am consistent in my skepticism and in the last 18yrs it has kept me pretty safe. Have I missed some good deals over the years? Probably. Have I ever been big time burned? No! What ever happened to the “a piece needs to stand on its own” and “buy the piece not the story” rhetoric most of you preach?

To more clearly answer John’s question of how many tunics have rock solid provenance. In my collection I can only say 2 out of 21 officers’ tunics. One I bought directly from the vets son via an ad. He was not a collector and it was stuffed in a box with some other stuff. The other one was acquired directly from the German vet’s widow along with many other personal belonging to back it all up.

**GFM** · 12-10-2007, 10:26 AM

As an FYI on the breast eagle discussion:

There is a thread right here on the WAF that shows several period photos of SS men wearing both heer breast and SS sleeve eagles on their tunics at the same time, as well as an SS sleeve eagle worn on the breast;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=257172

**Johnny R** · 12-10-2007, 10:43 AM

Are these real?

It comes down to accepting it or not. IMO it is impossible to say when things were applied or what was done to it, where it came from etc. before it was brought home. It looks good to me but so do the boobs until you see the head.

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**phild** · 12-10-2007, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by NTZ View Post

My definition in this case since we know it had a breast eagle would be a direct vet pick up. One who did not continue to collect post war. If the vet did not add to his collection i .e. more tunics or alter anything for display. At least in this scenario you know what he had was picked up this way.

As I said from the beginning of the thread. Not only is it possible that a once Heer tunic became an SS prior to 1945 but in this case (a doctors tunic) it somewhat makes sense. But when you can take a $1,000 tunic and turn it into a $10,000 tunic in a matter of minutes the chain of custody and provenance needs to support this too.

You guys are killing me with this “well every good SS tunic doesn’t have/need rock solid provenance” stuff. Of course it doesn’t. An SS M-42 is an SS M-42 and if the insignia does not look messed with who cares about provenance. Here we are talking about an officers tunic which could be Heer or SS with a shadow of a breast eagle. Give me a break!!! What collector in their right mind would not want “rock solid” provenance to back that up.

It seems some of you are not very consistent in your posts. In most cases you are skeptical of everything and in this case when you should be you are not as skeptical. Why is that, the dealer ?At least I am consistent in my skepticism and in the last 18yrs it has kept me pretty safe. Have I missed some good deals over the years? Probably. Have I ever been big time burned? No! What ever happened to the “a piece needs to stand on its own” and “buy the piece not the story” rhetoric most of you preach?

To more clearly answer John’s question of how many tunics have rock solid provenance. In my collection I can only say 2 out of 21 officers’ tunics. One I bought directly from the vets son via an ad. He was not a collector and it was stuffed in a box with some other stuff. The other one was acquired directly from the German vet’s widow along with many other personal belonging to back it all up.

I agree that from the photo it APPEARS to have once had a breast eagle. An in the hand look may change my opinion on that. We have discussed the reality of personnel tranfers from Heer to W-SS. It is a well documented fact and coule explain this tunic if it did in fact once have a breast eagle mounted. One thing to judge is to determine how much wear and fading the area above the pocket (under the former eagle) is present and decide if this is in line with the wear and age on the rest of the tunic and n that it is not contrived. I know common sense stuff but I thought that I would mention it.

As to the pedigree issue all I can say is that unless you (or me) get it directly from a vet or his family and even then in a circumstance that is not a set up or get it from a person that we know and trust 100% who got from a vet or family then we really have no pedigree and short of photos with the vet/family and notarized letters (all of which can be and are frauded up on occasion!) then we are really back to nothing more than a story.

I for one have reached a point a long time ago where I evaluate the item based on it's merit scrubbed against my knowledge and criteria (not claiming these to be the last word!) and if a "story" is also with the item I take that for what it worth....probably with the items that I have obtained they are most often true as they fit the item and are not real elaborate.

The more elaborate the story the more likley it is BS IMO.

**Luca Ongaro** · 12-10-2007, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by jhodgson View Post

It comes down to accepting it or not. IMO it is impossible to say when things were applied or what was done to it, where it came from etc. before it was brought home. It looks good to me but so do the boobs until you see the head.

Luca

**N.C. Wyeth** · 12-10-2007, 12:11 PM

Hey guys,

Kris and I talk every so often, and he wanted me to pass this on to everyone . . . these are his words by e-mail to me:

Hello Brad, <O

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I finally broke down this morning and read this thread everyone is so worked <O

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up about. I fully understand the justified paranoia that surrounds this and <O

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other SS tunics. I pulled down the tunic and examined the area above the <O

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right breast pocket. There is no "shadow" of a Heer eagle. Whoever buys this <O

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piece is free to examine it to their heart's content. I stand behind the <O

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piece. Feel free to do a cut and paste of this email if you like using my <O

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name. <O

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What I read earlier is precisely why I don't participate in the Forum. I <O

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don't want to get caught up in the "back-and-forth" with too many opinions <O

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and not enough experience. Some people make thought provoking points but <O

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over all I believe it lends to the confusion when people don't have the <O

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experience or really know what they're talking about without examining the <O

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tunic. Bill Rannow of Mnpls. who turned this up is really a very decent man. <O

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He's also very Christian. He didn't have a "dog in this fight" but came <O

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forward anyway.... <O

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Best regards, <O

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**John Pic** · 12-10-2007, 12:14 PM

I know of another SS uniform with a similar problem but the eagle shadow could only very fainly be seen under UV. The entire tunic and trousers were retailored to fit a different person than the one who originally wore them and there were consistant wear marks that showed where the previous person wore it before the new owner wore it.It also had a refaced collar. I never buy into "well collectors only should accept this or that because big daddy told me blah blah blah" The insignia on that uniform were very unique and consistant with period photos of other officers who served in the unit. If you start believing fakers are so smart they figure out to put unique insignias that most uninformed collectors run from then the battle is lost. Because Im fairly certain many Jr.officers were fitted with a used tunic or one tailored with a breast eagle sitting in a shop and later removed by the tailor it was economically sound and pfennig pinching was in vogue back then.SS officers didnt care they felt they were part of the Wehrmacht look at the piece itself NTZ..yes youre correct it must stand on its own but thats not possible just looking at pictures..pictures are just fodder for the loose cannon "I dont like it" "I wouldnt buy that" " I can entertain a doubt" who say that about everything they see practicaly unless it looks exactly like one they have.Some things can be viewed under specific textbook requirements but the entire uniform or tunic itself cannot be.The collecting of these will always be a difficult area even after every book is written.

Alot of minutia to go through to make a real good assesment of a tunic that passes the basic qualifying factors.

Sorry for borrowing your phrase B.N.Singer its a good one and did I spell Practicaly right?

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