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**Glenn McInnes** · 12-06-2007, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by phild View Post

I've seen enough "extreme depth" SS officer cuffs in photos to believe that in the main they were made that way.

My best guess is that normally SS officers wore the cufftitle on the top edge of the turn back rather than just above the cuff as had been the German military traditon for almost 200 years. By having the cuff turn back higher up the arm it places the title in a more typical height or perspective on the sleeve.

I have a W-SS tunic with the title sewn just above the cuff turnback and the cuffs are regulation depth (I think that was around 15cm). The title shows every indication of having been on the tunic since the war and the tunic was obtained from the SS officer's family in Bavaria about 25 years along with a lot of his other items. I have found maybe a half dozen period photos showing SS officers wearing the title in that position. Although it is certainly not the norm it was done for whatever reason as the period photos prove.

I would agree. The turn back cuffs on one that I have is at 17 1/2 cm with the cufftitle sewn at the top edge of the cuff.

The regulation cuff at 15cm (give or take a 1/2 cm) and the title above that but sewn to the actual sleeve and not the top of the cuff (about 2 1/2cm for the cufftitle) would give you your 17 1/2 cm.

Glenn

**Dr. Strangelove** · 12-06-2007, 06:54 PM

Theory

I believe NTZ might be right. It is only a theory of mine, but I believe that the SS was trying to escape Prussian Military tradition when they opted for the long pointy collars and other non-Army tunic features. We have to remember that it was National Socialism and Hitler was a Socilaist. A class leveler. Promotion in the SS was not based less on your connections/family as was the old tradition in the German Army. I believe it was Hitler who got rid of the uppercase V in von which of course preceded many blue-blood names. So the thinking is that Hitlers private National Socialist Army wants to look a little different. So as an SS tunic collector these features we are discussing are things I like to see.

**phild** · 12-06-2007, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post

I would agree. The turn back cuffs on one that I have is at 17 1/2 cm with the cufftitle sewn at the top edge of the cuff.

The regulation cuff at 15cm (give or take a 1/2 cm) and the title above that but sewn to the actual sleeve and not the top of the cuff (about 2 1/2cm for the cufftitle) would give you your 17 1/2 cm.

Glenn

Glenn, exactly. I do not know for sure if that is why mine and some very few others were mounted above the cuff but your analysis is certainly one possibility. The others would include something as easy as a wife or someone (like a tailor who had only placed Heer titles before!) else not SS connected mis-understanding where to affix the title and the officer not getting around to changing it before he was KIA.

My tunic was a "leave behind" and I doubt that he wore it a dozen times before he went to Russia and was later killed.

One thing that I do know is that uniform exactness of insignia placement in the German military was not a reality based on period photos. I would never dismiss an item for this reason alone.

**NTZ** · 12-06-2007, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post

I believe NTZ might be right. It is only a theory of mine, but I believe that the SS was trying to escape Prussian Military tradition when they opted for the long pointy collars and other non-Army tunic features. We have to remember that it was National Socialism and Hitler was a Socilaist. A class leveler. Promotion in the SS was not based less on your connections/family as was the old tradition in the German Army. I believe it was Hitler who got rid of the uppercase V in von which of course preceded many blue-blood names. So the thinking is that Hitlers private National Socialist Army wants to look a little different. So as an SS tunic collector these features we are discussing are things I like to see.

DR., the more I think about what I said the more it makes sense. The SS officer felt a sense of superiority over the army officer (even though for the most part it was untrue

). He wanted to stand out, look good for the ladies and probably wanted his uniform to mimic as close as possible the latest fashion trends. He wanted to look progressive (the new breed) and not be stuck in Prussian traditions. On the other side the Heer officer was probable just the opposite. He had a sense of military tradition and he himself felt superior to the SS officer. He was from a military background and proud of tradition. The army officer probably stuck much closer to regulations than the SS officer.

**Dr. Strangelove** · 12-06-2007, 08:05 PM

I will ask

I have a good friend and fellow collector who had more than a few drinks with the "Old Boys" including Otto Baum and I think this subject was talked about a few times. I will ask him what was specifically said.

**Glenn McInnes** · 12-06-2007, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by phild View Post

One thing that I do know is that uniform exactness of insignia placement in the German military was not a reality based on period photos. I would never dismiss an item for this reason alone.

Yes Sir, agreed! Especially with the non factory produced items unless altered after issue.

Glenn

**John Pic** · 12-07-2007, 02:55 AM

I examined an Deutschland officers SS style tunic, probably early pre war made. It had the cufftitle sewn above the cuff, and had the SS1 tab with the 1 removed.

Thanks Glenn for clarifying that about the Doctor tunic. I have seen this same thing on other SS tunics,the cuffs being pulled back to deepen them. I always thought it was because the tunics may have been recycled or the Officers size changed dramatically from poor diet.

**Dr. Strangelove** · 12-07-2007, 05:03 AM

Phone Call

Well I placed an Overseas phone call to try to resolve this issue and woke a cranky Old Man out of bed to ask him an esoteric question regarding SS tunics and I do not think my call was appreciated. Be that as it may, my Friend said he never breached the subject SS tunic tailoring with any SS Officer at a HIAG meeting as they were busy having fun and having a few Beers. He did say that Andrew Mollo told him that: " SS Officers preffered pointy collars as a break from Prussian tradition and they also liked single hooks". That is all he remembered before we were either disconnected or he hung up on me. So Mollo is the only source for this idea that I can find for whatever that is worth. If I find out anything else from a reliable source I will post it.

**jimt** · 12-07-2007, 07:36 AM

tunics

Dr. Strangelove,
Any chance of calling your SS friend for me and asking him if he has any SS stuff left over from the War ? I could use a few tunics, camo gear , and headgear. Or perhaps I could call him ? need phone number ? also need reservations at any good restaurants he could recommend? thanks
jim

**Glenn McInnes** · 12-07-2007, 08:02 AM

Originally posted by John Pic View Post

I have seen this same thing on other SS tunics,the cuffs being pulled back to deepen them. I always thought it was because the tunics may have been recycled or the Officers size changed dramatically from poor diet.

I have seen a few done either to shorten them or lengthen them that I thought were period,I few I have seen however were done post war to fit an actor (found the actors name penned in ink on the interior sleeve on one of them)

Glenn

**phild** · 12-07-2007, 10:45 AM

[quote=John Pic;2330267]I examined an Deutschland officers SS style tunic, probably early pre war made. It had the cufftitle sewn above the cuff, and had the SS1 tab with the 1 removed."

John, thanks for the tidbit above. My tunic with the above the cuff, cuff title is also a Deutschland. It would date from around 1940 or maybe early 41 based on his assignment record and the location of the tunic's tailor...so also fairly early.

I saw another one about 20 years ago that S. Wolfe had that also was apparently original....I can not say for sure but he said it was. It was from DF I believe and was an early M36 style officer's tunic with of course turnback cuffs and above the cuff mounted title.

When you have something that is a little different from "textbook" you tend to seek out examples in photos and other places to at least support the precident of it's use.

**Dr. Strangelove** · 12-07-2007, 11:05 AM

Uh NO!

Jim, My friend was not in the SS he just hung out with them after the War and you already know him. And he did a great job talking them out of their gear post-war.

**John Pic** · 12-07-2007, 11:41 AM

The one I saw was indeed with Steve Wolfe, he didnt shed much light on it other than to allow me to examine it. It was a Deutschland and din not have a dark green collar. I had seen the tunic before in the 1980s when he had it as well back then. It had loops for a DK on the right breast pocket.

**phild** · 12-07-2007, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by John Pic View Post

The one I saw was indeed with Steve Wolfe, he didnt shed much light on it other than to allow me to examine it. It was a Deutschland and din not have a dark green collar. I had seen the tunic before in the 1980s when he had it as well back then. It had loops for a DK on the right breast pocket.

We may be talking about the same tunic above and my memory is just failing, however I think that I would have locked the Deutschland aspect into my mind as it would have been the same Rgt as mine and not just the same Div.

I also saw a striped SS officer's overcoat post on this forum several years ago and I kept the pics. That overcoat clearly had at one time and for a LONG time an above the cuff mounted title. In my opinion it was without much doubt the real thing.

**John Pic** · 12-07-2007, 01:14 PM

Maybe my mind is failing me. It was an interesting tunic and I have seen period photos of this practice.

Mine has no cufftitle and appears to have never had one the material under the eagle is still a dark stone gray and there's no shadow on the cuff or holes.

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