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**phild** · 12-06-2007, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post

If you do not understand the difference between an SS cut uniform and a Army cut I cannot help you. I am well aware that many SS Officers wore Army cut tunics. You may want to look closely at some fotos of SS Officers and you might possibly notice some of them seem to be wearing strange pointy collars. If your a SS tunic junkie this would be more up your alley and of course I mean no dispespect to original SS tunics that are 6 button front with an Army collar. Now the 64k question is why did the SS sometimes wear these excessively pointy collars? Can anyone tell me? I have a theory.

This post has left me with a complete blank! I guess that I need more experience with uniforms to have a clue, oh well.

Regarding so-called SS officer cut tunics, well yes I guess I became familar with the various SS styles of open collar, slash lower pocket in earth grey, earth brown and fieldgray, and those syles with patch lower pockets and collars which could be worn open OR closed......about 35 years ago...I also know that those styles were all of pre war origin (SSVT) and in about 1939 an obscure guy named Himmler mandated that Officers wear the Heer style tunic....at least according to Mollo and about 20 other researchers.

As far as collar points and such....well all that I can say is that one can find A LOT specific shape and point length differences within both custom tunics worn by SS officers and within tunics worn by Heer officers. I have never never noticed what I would call an SS trend in officer tunics with extra long collar points (compared to Heer officer tunics), The collars need to be wide enough to fit the larger SS officer tab, but that would be it. I have seen plenty of SS officers wearing Heer ISSUE M-36 tunics with the original smallar issue collars.....for example.

Sometimes (seemingly more now than in the past) this hobby gets too crazy for me.

**phild** · 12-06-2007, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post

If you do not understand the difference between an SS cut uniform and a Army cut I cannot help you. I am well aware that many SS Officers wore Army cut tunics. You may want to look closely at some fotos of SS Officers and you might possibly notice some of them seem to be wearing strange pointy collars. If your a SS tunic junkie this would be more up your alley and of course I mean no dispespect to original SS tunics that are 6 button front with an Army collar. Now the 64k question is why did the SS sometimes wear these excessively pointy collars? Can anyone tell me? I have a theory.

This post has left me with a complete blank! I guess that I need more experience with uniforms to have a clue, oh well.

Regarding so-called SS officer cut tunics, well yes I guess I became familar with the various SS styles of open collar, slash lower pocket in earth grey, earth brown and fieldgray, and those syles with patch lower pockets and collars which could be worn open OR closed......about 35 years ago...I also know that those styles were all of pre war origin (SSVT) and in about 1939 an obscure guy named Himmler mandated that Officers wear the Heer style tunic....at least according to Mollo and about 20 other researchers.

As far as collar points and such....well all that I can say is that one can find A LOT specific shape and point length differences within both custom tunics worn by SS officers and within tunics worn by Heer officers. I have never never noticed what I would call an SS trend in officer tunics with extra long collar points (compared to Heer officer tunics), The collars need to be wide enough to fit the larger SS officer tab, but that would be it. I have seen plenty of SS officers wearing Heer ISSUE M-36 tunics with the original smallar issue collars.....for example.

Sometimes (seemingly more now than in the past) this hobby gets too crazy for me.

**phild** · 12-06-2007, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post

If you do not understand the difference between an SS cut uniform and a Army cut I cannot help you. I am well aware that many SS Officers wore Army cut tunics. You may want to look closely at some fotos of SS Officers and you might possibly notice some of them seem to be wearing strange pointy collars. If your a SS tunic junkie this would be more up your alley and of course I mean no dispespect to original SS tunics that are 6 button front with an Army collar. Now the 64k question is why did the SS sometimes wear these excessively pointy collars? Can anyone tell me? I have a theory.

This is not a matter of what I understand and don't understand. The Himmler 1939 mandate was for SS officers to wear a Heer officer style tunic end of story. All period photos bear this out with the obvious exception that many W-SS continued to wear the PRE-WAR SS cuts as well....as anyone would expect. The wartime W-SS Officers tunic was by regulation a Heer style Officers tunic with either 5 or 6 front buttons...generally determined by when it was made.

As to the highly pointed collars.....well Heer officers and NCO's wore them all the time as well on custom tunics and re-collared issue tunics. The reason is simple: they were a fashion statement of the time. One will see this on civilian lapels of the era and shirt collars....they were not to be used on Heer or SS tunics based on the guidlines but they were put on in many cases anyway. That is the way soldiers are and were even in the German Army and even more so in the SS officer corps.

**Dr. Strangelove** · 12-06-2007, 03:57 PM

Phild

Phild, I went back and read my post and I apoligize for sounding like a smarta%%. To be more clear let me drop my tone and just say I like SS tunics with nice pointy collars for my own reasons and theories. And I appreciate your posts and theories on the subject.

**John Pic** · 12-06-2007, 03:58 PM

I agree it was easier before the internet as an individual when collecting. Each person saw and handled things they thought,or knew were originals and the opinions of multitudes of unknowns meant little. We recently learned though that much written and unwritten opinion is simply wrong.. there is greater access to photographs and materials that point to things previously unacceptable to many collectors who learned from one or two sources only. We see these things in practice in dated pictures and if youre smart and dont feel you already know everything you open your minds eye up and learn and enjoy the quest for more knowledge. Here is a tunic that is cut in the SS fashion and I THINK it dates around 40-43 era. It is made from a stone gray (heavily faded) Cotton /Rayon light weight blend.A tunic of this exact material can be found on page 969 of Beaver Vol.3 the example there is an SD tunic. Mine has two collar hooks and is unlined the pocket flaps are a sharper cut than the SD tunic so that leads me to think privately tailored.It also was found with trousers made from the exact same material. The shoulder boards bare a "1" cypher like those seen being worn in Mark Yergers book "Riding East" by Cavalry Regiment 1 members of the SS Cavalry Brigade.

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C-5.JPG (161.5 KB, 491 views)

**NTZ** · 12-06-2007, 04:15 PM

As an army collector who buys a lot of officer’s tunics I will say one thing I noticed between true SS officers and Heer officers. The SS tunics tend to have pointer collars and deeper scallops on the pockets. Maybe it was a fashion thing with the SS? This one does have some pretty deep scallops. For what ever reason army tended to be more conservative in those areas. Just an observation.

**John Pic** · 12-06-2007, 04:23 PM

There is no real difference there are some tunics worn by heer officers with deeper scallops it may be the region or the tailors sense of fashion that dictates the cut and style. Some heer tunics also had lower slash pockets as well. I recently saw an NCO tunic on the estand with this feature.

**Glenn McInnes** · 12-06-2007, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by John Pic View Post

There is no real difference there are some tunics worn by heer officers with deeper scallops it may be the region or the tailors sense of fashion that dictates the cut and style. Some heer tunics also had lower slash pockets as well..

Yes I agree,I have noticed on some officers jackets (as PhilD mentioned) that were without question W-SS the very deep turned back French cuffs (I have an example like this) I can't remember seeing that particular feature on any Heer officers jacket before unless it just went unnoticed.

Glenn

**John Pic** · 12-06-2007, 04:35 PM

This got me to thinking also, I have had a couple SS tunics where it appeared the cuffs were lengthened . The Doctors tunic that started this thread had the sleeves lengthened, cuffs deepened as well if you look you can see it in the pics.

**phild** · 12-06-2007, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by John Pic View Post

There is no real difference there are some tunics worn by heer officers with deeper scallops it may be the region or the tailors sense of fashion that dictates the cut and style. Some heer tunics also had lower slash pockets as well. I recently saw an NCO tunic on the estand with this feature.

Thanks for posting the comment above!

Dr. Strangelove, The apology for curtness is on me...I just spazed out for a second!

I understand why we look for features that would point to a tunic (custom officers) being either SS or Heer, I just don't believe that there are any slam dunk traits that are unique to either service with this style. I will not deny that mayber highly pointed collars and deep scalloped pocket flaps were more sought after among SS officers, they may have been....but in no way unique to them.

I have looked a lot at the fabrics used in both styles of tunics...and have found no 100% rule. I will say that I have seen a number of SS items using the material of the tunic in John's post above. I see more (higher%)Italian worsted wool fabric used in W-SS tunics than Heer....but I've seen a good number of Heer that use it as well.

Basically they could and did order and buy what they wanted in regards to fabric and details of cut. I do think that there were SS officer tunics sold "off the shelf" by the SS clothing counters...that is another story and those tunics may in fact of details that are specific to SS officer's tunics....they are in effect contracted SS officer tunics.

**Glenn McInnes** · 12-06-2007, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by John Pic View Post

This got me to thinking also, I have had a couple SS tunics where it appeared the cuffs were lengthened . The Doctors tunic that started this thread had the sleeves lengthened, cuffs deepened as well if you look you can see it in the pics.

Or perhaps the sleeves shortened and the French cuff pulled back,have marked the crease here in red.

Glenn

Attached Files

0711u1-4.jpg (49.8 KB, 634 views)

**NTZ** · 12-06-2007, 04:48 PM

Do you guys think there was more “style” to SS tunics because they did not come from (for the most part) the same military traditions as Heer officers? They may have been more apt to follow fashion trends and not tradition? Just a few thoughts.

**judas** · 12-06-2007, 04:58 PM

a lot of this is attributed to the austrians fashion with sharp pockets

**phild** · 12-06-2007, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post

Yes I agree,I have noticed on some officers jackets (as PhilD mentioned) that were without question W-SS the very deep turned back French cuffs (I have an example like this) I can't remember seeing that particular feature on any Heer officers jacket before unless it just went unnoticed.

Glenn

I've seen enough "extreme depth" SS officer cuffs in photos to believe that in the main they were made that way.

My best guess is that normally SS officers wore the cufftitle on the top edge of the turn back rather than just above the cuff as had been the German military traditon for almost 200 years. By having the cuff turn back higher up the arm it places the title in a more typical height or perspective on the sleeve.

I have a W-SS tunic with the title sewn just above the cuff turnback and the cuffs are regulation depth (I think that was around 15cm). The title shows every indication of having been on the tunic since the war and the tunic was obtained from the SS officer's family in Bavaria about 25 years along with a lot of his other items. I have found maybe a half dozen period photos showing SS officers wearing the title in that position. Although it is certainly not the norm it was done for whatever reason as the period photos prove.

**phild** · 12-06-2007, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by NTZ View Post

Do you guys think there was more “style” to SS tunics because they did not come from (for the most part) the same military traditions as Heer officers? They may have been more apt to follow fashion trends and not tradition? Just a few thoughts.

My feeling is that a lot of uniform details were more unit based than accross a service. The age range of the wearer was also a factor. You will very often find that younger (usually also these were the junior rank officers) will have the tunic skirts cut shorter or higher up than more senior/older officers. Many if not most PZ officers wore the wraps very short and more so with SS PZ.

Most junior officers did not like bag strips in their lower pockets ("bellows") and would have them sewn directly to the tunic, most older officers and esp. Generals did at least to a degree prefer bag strips in the lower pockets and many retained the slash pocket old style bluses.

Many junior officers would have the center vent sewn closed on the tunic. This was probably becaus it looked bad on a very short skirted tunic.

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