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Frw. Legion Norwegian SS Armband on Estand

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    Frw. Legion Norwegian SS Armband on Estand

    Hi,

    The last post indicate that a new tread should be opened if to discuss. This tread on the estand has turned out to a discussion:

    http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=248622

    I would like to give the following comments.

    Both before and after the 2WW Norwegian people without uniforms could be place under military command and be soldiers if they used a "Felttegn" instead of a uniform, felttegn is a Norwegian word for armband. (This was part of the uniform description and is according to rules of war concerning the use of uniform. This practice was common for the resistance in Norway during the liberation period, from may 1945, as it was not possible to supply them with uniforms before the end of the war.)

    In a official publication from 1932 describing the Norwegian army we can find description of uniforms as well as:

    "Felttegn" (Armband): The description is of a armband with horizontal stripes in Red(top), blue (middle) and white (bottom). The color stripes has the same width. It should be used on the right upper arm of people, in wartime, under military command that had not been issued uniforms in order to act as a soldier an be part of the armed forces.

    There was some new uniforms introduced in 1934 and I am sure there must be some documentation on the use of "felttegn" if any changes or amendments to "Felttegn" was made, unfortunately I do not have such available.

    In a uniform and dress code military publication from 1962 we can still find the use of "Felttegn". The description inform that personnel without uniform that participate in combat in war, must carry armband in Norwegian colors or with Norwegian flag on the left upper arm. There is a drawing of a armband in Norwegian colors. It is made on white cloth with a small vertical blue stripe in the middle and two larger red vertical stripes (I have enclosed a picture of a 2WW resistance used armband in the same pattern as the drawing in the 1962 publication). The drawing is of the 1st official armband used by the resistance in may 1945. Armbands with Norwegian flags where also used by the resistance in various models.

    Neither publications describes a armband as the one published in this tread. I would assume if such was produced by the military after the war that the uniform regulations would contain describtions of this armband. The 1962 descriptions only describe the same patterns armband that was used by the resistance in 1945.

    As far as I understand there has been a general comment that this armband was used by the Legion, but not made for them, as it is a prewar made armband. The use of various armbands to "show" Norwegian identity has been a common practice from 1905 (our Independence from the union with Sweden). Such use was probably not part of the standard uniform practice and therefore not a "military" item. I would guess civilian made in various patterns and used on special occasions. I would assume that both civilian and military use could be found. After 1945 norwegian forces serving outside Norway or in need to show nationality has been usning various types of flags or national shields on their uniforms, but not armbands as the one in question.

    Rgds
    Pål
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Bax; 10-27-2007, 01:35 PM.

    #2
    Good idea Pål to bring this up for discussion as well as your input regarding the use of Norwegian arm bands in general. I would like to see photos showing the version in question used post war.

    So far I cant say yes or no for the version in question and I have posted my opinions in the sale thread.

    However, slightly out of my field of knowledge, I am willing to listen to others and learn more.

    I think its especially interesting to hear what you collectors from Norway has to say regarding this matter.

    "Felix" - N. Hansson

    Comment


      #3
      Another photo showing it in use;

      Also, I would like to see photos of this arm band used post war.
      Attached Files

      Comment


        #4
        I purchased one from Derek too and would like to clarify the issue as well. Is it possible to post close up photos and compare the armbands? From the photos, it seems that the white stripe is same thickness as the blue (1:1 ration), while on the arbmands that are being sold the white stripe is much smaller.

        Comment


          #5
          Armband

          Hello!

          You can all see what I have said on my replies on e-stand.<O</O
          Here are of my comments.<O</O
          <O</O
          The armband on sale is a post war production. It is not made for the SS volunteers but it is an armband for civilians in military service during war time.<O</O
          <O</O
          There were at least 3 productions of the armband.<O</O
          The first production was before the war and the armband was sawn together. See my second picture.<O</O
          Second production is after the war and the armband I not elastic. See Dereks armband on e-stand.<O</O
          Third production is also after the war and the armband is elastic.<O</O
          <O</O
          I also know about the uniform regulations from 1962, BAX.<O</O
          <O</O
          I’ll file a picture of the Norwegian Army uniform regulations from 1985.<O</O
          As you can see here is the Army Uniforms Regulations from 1985.<O</O
          <O</O
          I’ll translate.<O</O
          <O</O
          Armband, field sign<O</O
          Personnel without uniform participating in the war shall wear armband with the Norwegian colours or a National flag on the left upper arm.

          Best regards
          Harald Haeg<O</O
          Attached Files

          Comment


            #6
            Pre war armband

            This belonged to Norwegian SS volenteer John Lind.
            Attached Files

            Comment


              #7
              Thank you for posting the regulations handbook - as we can see the the white stripe is identical in size to those that are on E-stand.

              Comment


                #8
                Hello!

                Interesting debate. I have seen one picture, taken from a veterans convention of WW1-war sailors 50 years after WW1, which means post war. Here is the link, second picture. http://www.samlarforum.nu/viewtopic.php?t=2322

                They are wearing the same kind of armbands shown in Haralds uniform regulations book.

                B.
                (former captain)
                Last edited by Björn Jervas; 10-27-2007, 05:22 PM. Reason: new informations found after first posting

                Comment


                  #9
                  This is indeed a interesting debate.
                  This sort of armband are beeing sold on a Norwegian auction site from time to time and I have always wondered about the story behind them.

                  So... now I know. Thanks!

                  /André

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Armband

                    The picture is a post war picture as Bjørn has said. Look at the uniforms right in the picture. The uniforms are Norwegian post war uniforms. Pre war uniform were quite different.

                    Best regards
                    Harald
                    Last edited by Adelheim; 10-27-2007, 06:05 PM. Reason: Errors in text

                    Comment


                      #11
                      First of all i would like to support Andres remark - a highly interesting debate concerning these armbands, supposedly worn by the norwegian legion.

                      It seems to be that Haralds research really proves that these armbands on e-stand is postwar, thus all credit to him for his willingnes to provide "hard to beat" documentation as evidence for his claims in the early beginning of this debate that these armbands indeed were postwar productions.

                      But, i would really like to see some documentation from the other side of the table before finally drawing the line. It seems that quite many people have bought these items as "the real thing" over the past years, so perhaps the seller should be able to provide some evidence that withstands Haralds documented claim as postwar productions?


                      AH

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Hi Harald,

                        Thanks for showing the 1985 dress code book version as it shows a drawing of the same pattern armband as in question and therfore conclude that this pattern armband was in the military system after the war.

                        When I look at the period pictures both posted by Derek and you (of Lind) it seems that the white border is thicker than the blue in the center. Both on Dereks armband and the one you show from Lind it seems that the blue border is about double size of the white (the pattern is the same and as per 1985 dress code book)? It might be the pictures but it looks like they all are using a armband with a thin blue stripe and equal or slightly wider white stripes.

                        Do you know of a another armband that was used as well, that have the pattern that seems to be in the period pictures?

                        Very interesting and educational tread!

                        Rgds
                        Pål

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Armband

                          Hello Pål!

                          I have not seen another period armband and to be honest I have not been looking for one, but there must be some survivors out there. I’ll contact my friend Mr Persen at the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Norwegian</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Defence</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Museum</st1:PlaceType> next time I am in <ST1<st1:City w:st="on">Oslo</st1:City></ST1 and see if the museum has got one.

                          Regards
                          Harald<O</O

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Hi.

                            I bougth these armbands from an old military stock, as prewar armbands.
                            Her is a translation written by a member of a Swedish forum regarding the identical armband I have:

                            Armbindet som påstås å ha vært brukt av DNL og andre fantes også før krigen.
                            Om dette også ble brukt av DNL/andre frivillige under krigen vet jeg ikke.
                            Men min far hadde fått ett slikt armbind under nøytralitetsvakten i 1939-1940 i finnmark, og det er det samme tykke stoffet som vist her

                            " The Armband is claimed to have been used by Den Norske Legion and others, was availible before the war. If this was used by Den Norske Legion and other under the war I do not know. But my father had an armband like this used under guardduty in 1939-1940 i Finnmark and it is in the same thick material as shown here... ".

                            Regards
                            Derek

                            Comment


                              #15
                              And here it has been found a very interesting picture in a magasine today.
                              These 3 offisers are wearing norwegian uniforms from before the war. They are all in "Den Norske Legion".
                              The offiser to the left wears an armband like the one I have posted on the e-stand and the offiser on the rigth wears an armband much thinner than the other offiser.
                              IMO the offiser on the left looks like he is wearing the armband I have posted earlier !

                              Regards

                              Derek
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by DeMil; 10-30-2007, 03:10 PM.

                              Comment

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