Waffen-SS Einheits. M43 EM

[Daniele C]

i agree with Ben and Bob.
I had as well a 1944 marked ss M43 with trap with RbNr and it was absoloutely good!

[TonyS]

I'm with Bob H on this one. I would not want another SS cap with an RB number either.

For me there will always be a lingering doubt with those items. Just like Heer tunics with SS insignia. However, lots of collectors are happy with them.

With your cap Tom (besides the RB number issue) I have to agree with the other comments about the sewing of the insignia. It does not give me a good feeling when I look at it. Sorry.

[besslein]

I'm with Bob H on this one. I would not want another SS cap with an RB number either.

For me there will always be a lingering doubt with those items. Just like Heer tunics with SS insignia. However, lots of collectors are happy with them.

With your cap Tom (besides the RB number issue) I have to agree with the other comments about the sewing of the insignia. It does not give me a good feeling when I look at it. Sorry.

with rb number I agree with you and Bob,but can you tell me what is for you wrong with m36 or m40 with ss insignia? I have one never touched(M40) and Im very happy with this one ,and imo the are much rare as m43 ss tunics-if untauched

[Bobwirtz]

Most of the headgear made for the Waffen-SS was done by clothing contractors and as such they would have used an RB number when the order came out to do so. Maybe research needs to be done (if possible) to determine which RB Numbers match up with an SS contract and which to a Heer contract -- if that is possible. If the number only identifies the manufacturer, then it may not be possible to determine, except if particular manufacturers were engaged in making ONLY Army or Waffen-SS headgear.

In my opinion, and from what I've gathered over the years, I am not bothered with an RB Number in a Waffen-SS cap. I guess it's what you're comfortable with. If you exclude these from your collections, you could be missing some great headgear but that's up to each collector.

Bob Wirtz

[Bob Hritz]

I am sorry to have responded. I only said I would not have one. Whatever makes other collectors happy is fine with me. I will not post again, on this subject.

Bob Hritz

[Mike Davis]

In my opinion, and from what I've gathered over the years, I am not bothered with an RB Number in a Waffen-SS cap. I guess it's what you're comfortable with. If you exclude these from your collections, you could be missing some great headgear but that's up to each collector.

I agree completely. Have had a couple of M43s (one black with dual piece insignia) with RBNrs, still have one.

[billbert]

Different strokes for different folks....
As said whatever appeals to each collector...Billbert

[TonyS]

I am sorry to have responded. I only said I would not have one. Whatever makes other collectors happy is fine with me. I will not post again, on this subject.

Bob Hritz

Bob, why would you be sorry for anything you posted in this thread? I can't see anyone getting upset over it.

Looks like we all agree to disagree on a few points. Not a big deal from where I sit.

[90th Light]

Most of the headgear made for the Waffen-SS was done by clothing contractors and as such they would have used an RB number when the order came out to do so. Maybe research needs to be done (if possible) to determine which RB Numbers match up with an SS contract and which to a Heer contract -- if that is possible. If the number only identifies the manufacturer, then it may not be possible to determine, except if particular manufacturers were engaged in making ONLY Army or Waffen-SS headgear.

In my opinion, and from what I've gathered over the years, I am not bothered with an RB Number in a Waffen-SS cap. I guess it's what you're comfortable with. If you exclude these from your collections, you could be missing some great headgear but that's up to each collector.

Bob Wirtz

I have to agree with this, It makes no sense to me that you could not get an SS M43 cap with an RB or RF number.

There was a massive expansion in the SS during the war esp. as they accepted the volks / foreign volunteers. Eventually the SS manufacturing facilities could not cope with the demand and alot of contracts were given to some manufacturers who had not traditionally supplied the SS.

Many of the SS M43's would have come from the KZ & Ghetto workhouse / factories but supplies were also arriving from factories which had traditionally made WH, LW & KM caps. These latter manufacturers used RB numbers.

The RB number is not a Wehrmacht classification, instead it is a code for identifying a certain manufacturer in a particular part of the Reich. It is what we call an "Industry code"

The SS do not seem to have used these codes extensively in their own manufacturing but then they are the owners and shareholders of such factories. Many of which were annexed to the SS via confiscation. Also in their own factories they were the judges of the quality verses the expense of producing the item.

The other factories were owned by recognized shareholders or partnerships in the Third Reich. These factories have to be paid and any defective whares returned. The need to identify such factories clearly but not inform the bombers is a necessity.

If one can not find SS M43 caps with RB numbers then this says that all SS M43 caps came from SS owned factories which was just not possible. They could not cope with demand but produced a lot more for the SS than the RB factories. The SS is unique when compared to the Wehrmacht in that it owned production facilities which the Wehrmacht did not. This is because of the nature of the SS and their position in the hierarchy of the Third Reich.

Also you get WH, LW & KM with RB numbers so why not the SS ?. What I am saying here, is that the combat branches had the highest demand for new items and replacements. Another interesting point is the fact that the LW had the discretion to purchase uniform items from SS manufactures as well as the RB factories. The LW faced the same challenge of expansion of their field divisions that the SS did and no matter how much they wanted to keep their production exclusive and between the favored, the reality was that they had to procure sufficient materials for their needs .

All an RB number means is, independant shareholder company production. These companies, like all good businessmen would have accepted orders from a range of customers but the WH was the largest.

With respect to all in this debate, Chris

[billbert]

Nice insight Chris thanks..Billbert

[pete]

..

Excellent post, only rings true to know the history of the item through infomration like this while mking a judgement call and not throw it out immediatly because its not textbook.

P

[jimt]

m-43

If RB numbers exsist in the SS M-44 camo jackets and pants ( Have seen sets directly from vets) then why cannot these numbers be found in hats? makes no sense to me ? I think they are the real deal.........
jim toncar

[Bob Hritz]

Jim,

Are you sure they are not Ravensbrook markings? I have seen those, on many SS camo jackets and pants, but never an RB number. I have seen numbers, but never preceeded by the letters RB.

I still will stay away from any SS items with RB numbers, but that is good because there is more available for other collectors. Each chooses what one wants to believe is original, and I choose not to believe. I certainly could be wrong, which would not be the first time.

Bob Hritz

[jimt]

m.43

Hi Bob ,
I think posting number 69 , by 90th light explains the exact nature of RB numbers , if something else is too be learned as to the nature of these RB markings then please explain ? That is aslo the conclusion I have come to accept , but certainly this could be wrong? could you please share with me your thoughts as to what is a RB number ?
jim

[Bob Hritz]

The SS clothing works were not only controlled by the SS, but by high ranking party and SS leaders who had a financial interest in the profits. I imagine that clothing would have been purchased through the official channels, via SS procurements. It is interesting that we don't see SS men wearing issue army tunics, after 1940 (excusing the wear out for already issued Heer clothing and the HBT and M-44 tunics), but SS pattern clothing procured through the SS suppliers. Those SS camo tunics and pants I have obtained were through my ads, one set from Dachau (unmarkedexcept for sizes) and the other sets from Ravensbrook. Strangely, all the jackets were mint and all the pants were worn. One tunic, from Ravensbrook, has numbering, similar to the RB numbers, but WITHOUT and RB prefix.

I also understand in times of supply difficulty that items were switched. As far as I am concerned, a M-43 cap with an RB number and SS insignia is an army M-43 cap used by an SS soldier (providing the insignia was applied pre May 8, 1945).

In the final stages of the war, I guess all rules were off, with the supply difficulties. I was not aware of a surplus of Heer uniform gear which was issued to SS men, but suppose it could have happened. Did the Heer have a surplus of tunics and caps in 1944 and 1945?

I only have 5 Waffen-SS M-43 caps (three feldgrau and 2 black). Three are only size marked and 2 are unmarked. I have a number of Heer M-43 caps, some only size marked and some RB numbered. It is my choice and what I desire. I do not care what others choose to collect. If asked my opinion, I would say the same. I would hope others were able to make their own decisions based on study and observation of known originals.

I do have a small album of Galacian volunteers. They are wearing a mixture of SS and Heer zeltbanns, late in the war. I guess many of the volunteer units got what was left over.

As a final thought, I had gotten a waffen-SS officer hat, from a veteran, many years ago. the only insignia ever applied was metal Luftwaffe eagle and winged wreath. I fuilly believe it was worn, as a replacement, by a Luftwaffe officer. However, it was still an SS hat. I have seen original Heer visor hats, with cheaply applied black material, placed over the green band (not sewn down, just slipped over the band). No matter who wore the hat, it is still an army hat, not SS.

Bob Hritz